FSD in the Versus Series

[NKI]

This thread will serve as the authoritative guide on how to perform FSD in the versus series. Please help me fill in the missing information...

"delayed OTG" refers to moves that leave the opponent laying on the ground for longer than normal, allowing you to do a very late OTG. Easiest example is with Juggernaut in XSF in the corner: Jab Juggernaut Punch, cr.Short (FSD) xx Headcrush

COTA

• FS doesn't exist

MSH

• - hit on the last frame of hit-stun
  - combo a throw
  - trip out of the air (also works with non-tripping moves like Shoto cr.Short and cr.Forward)
  - delayed OTG

XSF

• - hit on the last frame of hit-stun
  - combo a throw
  - trip out of the air (also works with non-tripping moves like Shoto cr.Short and cr.Forward)
  - delayed OTG

MSF

• - delayed OTG

MvC

• - trip out of the air
  - delayed OTG
  - hit with an assist

MvC2

• - trip out of the air
  - delayed OTG
  - hit with an assist

[fullmetalross]

what about sabertooths st.fp in xvsf? that seems to reset it. Unless it was something else that caused it. I'll try to get a video maybe this weekend and show it.

[Magnetro]

I wouldn't count 'hit with assist' it's like killing the guy. It's a lame way to do it. I think you mentioned all of them, the setups just get elaborate and look like you're doing something else but you're always going be doing a delayed otg or sweep while they're in the air.

[NKI]

what about sabertooths st.fp in xvsf? that seems to reset it. Unless it was something else that caused it. I'll try to get a video maybe this weekend and show it.

That seems to be a case of "hitting on the last frame of hit-stun". When you catch the opponent out of the air with his st.Fierce, the second hit will often connect on the last frame of hit-stun, causing FSD.

I wouldn't count 'hit with assist' it's like killing the guy. It's a lame way to do it. I think you mentioned all of them, the setups just get elaborate and look like you're doing something else but you're always going be doing a delayed otg or sweep while they're in the air.

I agree that it's a pretty lame way to do FSD, but this is supposed to be a complete list. :shrug:

[Maj]

Hm, this entire subject turned out to be a hell of a lot simpler than i thought. I didn't realize there were so few categories.

In any case, i'm fairly certain there's no Flying Screen in COTA so it's a fair bet there's no FSD either. It's kinda surprising to see the MSH section still blank. I know everyone hates MSF but i was under the impression that all the old school Marvel kids loved MSH.

[Mike Z]

Didn't know anything about this in MSF except that I never saw FSD, not even from Meikyousisui. So I did some research.
Turns out they pretty much got it "right" from the perspective of eliminating FSD:
- Hitting onto an assist projectile does NOT cause FSD. (aircombo down onto Dhalsim assist)
- Tripping out of the air does NOT cause FSD, they just go into normal FS knockdown instead of the trip knockdown, and get up super-quick. (Chun corner sj combo to standing Jab->c.RH)
- You can't combo throws.

However:
- Leaving them on the floor for a long time does cause FSD (Hulk vs. OR in corner, d.Fierce wait [uncombo] QCT+PP 2 hits, let them lie there, c.Short xx Gamma Charge)

Edit: I remember MSH being hella random and confusing, Spidey sj.Fierce causes FS but if you hit them OTG it breaks it, Wolvie divekick->j.RH may or may not even cause FS but causes knockdown, etc etc.

[NKI]

Spidey sj.Fierce causes FS but if you hit them OTG it breaks it

Interesting...and you're sure this isn't a case of delayed OTG?

[Mike Z]

I'll look into MSH some more today. There is stuff I can almost-but-not-quite remember that had really weird properties, like FS just kinda going away if you did enough reps of an infinite. I could almost attribute that to last-frame-of-hitstun, though.

[Mike Z]

MSH:
- Letting them stay on the floor for a long time = FSD (Jab JugPunch, c.Short->c.Fierce sj - also Spidey s.Strong sj. slow Short->Strong->Fwd->Fierce wait OTG.)
- Comboing a throw = FSD (Psylocke corner sj combo to U+RH, U+RH land c.Fwd wait jump airthrow, relaunch sj. In fact I used to love to do this combo in matches.)
- Hitting on the last frame of hitstun = FSD (same Psylocke combo to delayed c.Fierce, sj. If you do it a frame earlier you can't sj.)
- Certain moves seem to innately break FS (Shuma sj.D+Fierce, for example. s.Fwd sj Short Strong Fwd U+Fierce[FS], falling D+Fierce, then you can hit them OTG immediately and FS is still turned off no matter what.)
That was all I could find.

Wolverine's infinite doesn't cause FS, and reps of others tend to break it due to hitting on the last frame somewhere in the middle.

See now what's interesting to me is what else they did to games to try to fix FS being broken:
- COTA had none, they added it to MSH stop infinites.
- MSH you couldn't cause FS from a normal jump or flying, and even when it's on nj moves never act like their sj FS-causing counterparts. Didn't help with infinites.
- XSF they allowed you to cause FS from a normal jump and flying, probably so that nj moves knocked down faster. Still didn't help much. This was when the last-frame-of-hitstun FSD became well known.
- MSF they realized knocking people away didn't work in the corner so they modified "all" FS-causing moves to knock you down quickly, removed the trip method, and fixed the last-frame issue. They also let you cause FS from nj's, which combined with the fast knockdown means any air series pretty much finishes your combo. This worked but it was no fun at all (the infinite exceptions are moves that cause FS that still knock you up, like Dhalsim j.far RH).
- MvC I'm tempted to say they went back to the XSF engine and started from that because MSF was no fun. (^.^) It added assists which now break it, put back the trip thing, and kept the increased knockdown speed of FS attacks.
- MvC2 doesn't let you cause it from nj but keeps the behavior of MvC otherwise.

[Magnetro]

MvC2 FS isn't tied with the combo meter so you can throw a character while FS is on but it will not combo. I don't really think that's FSD but when the person is thrown and lands the screen will shift like it was FS. The person can also tech-hit before or after they get thrown; looks weird. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99n43z0X89A

Also you can keep FS going after the combo stops.

[Mike Z]

Is that 1-frame timing, or do you have longer to do it?
If it's 1-frame, it's probably: they fixed throws comboing from the last frame of hitstun (by just fixing the combometer, not the actual it-connecting-on-that-frame problem), and they fixed throws breaking FS, so in XSF that throw would have combo'd and broken FS.

[Magnetro]

I just remembered another one. It was in one of joo's videos that he didn't release. It was Sakura vs. COlossus in the corner: Launch lk mk spinning bird kick hp hk (otg) walk up s.lk, cr. mk cr.hk.

It works the same as the dhalsim one where fs and combometer differences are used to break FS. Sakura sets colossus in standing frame using her cr.mk which doesn't combo but hits fast enough so FS isn't gone....then cr.hk --> cr.lk <~ = FSD

So I guess it's delayed OTG...Just kinda elaborate

[Magnetro]

this one is delayed otg as well but it's off a throw:

http://zachd.com/magnetro/if/system/med ... al_fsd.wmv

the weird thing is you can tech hit the landing which MIGHT COUNT AS FSD depending on who you are.

http://zachd.com/magnetro/if/system/med ... w_tech.avi

[NKI]

Whoa...that's effed up.

[Magnetro]

So I was thinking about what you wrote down for FSDs and I don't think the names are appropriate. I wrote about them @ http://zachd.com/magnetro/if/system/fly ... n.html#fsd . Delayed otg doesn't sound right when you think about it. it should probably be something else?

[NKI]

What's wrong with delayed OTG?

[Magnetro]

Tripping them and 'delayed otg' are the same thing. You're always gonna do delayed otg no matter how you set it up. For instance, if you trip them in mid-air with Cable,you're still gonna wait a while before your otg will be considered FSD. Same thing if you do the other kind of setup, like this one: http://zachd.com/magnetro/if/system/med ... le_fsd.avi you're still gonna have to OTG him later on for it to work. You're always gonna be waiting a short time for FS to go away in both cases.

[NKI]

I'm not totally sure how it works in Marvel, but in XSF, "trip out of the air" and "delayed OTG" are definitely different, unrelated methods of FSD. You don't have to use an OTG with "trip out of the air", because pretty much any low-hitting move will do (even non-tripping moves). For example, with Ryu vs. Juggernaut, if you juggle him with a cr.Short or cr.Forward, that will cause FSD, without using any kind of OTG. He stays in the air the whole time.

[Magnetro]

Ah, ok. Yeah, in mvc2 is different.

[NKI]

Are you sure about that? I just noticed that in Joo's DVD preview, he does a Captain America combo at 3:40 which suggests to me that it's the trip, not the OTG, that is causing FSD.

He sets FS, trips Roll out of the air, then he OTG's with Stars & Stripes, which is a special move. So that means FS had already been broken before the OTG.

[Magnetro]

Nah, you have to wait a while before you do the stars and stripes. You can otg with anything as long as it's fast enough. There was a video full of FSDs he did in 2003 and it showed Guile doing one and he otg'd with THC using his somersault kick super. Some characters can otg with normals cause their sweeps recover fast enough and their normals are very quick. People that can't (captain america) have to use something that's really fast to OTG.

[Maj]

The point is that Cap couldn't have even done DP if flying screen hadn't already been broken by the non-OTG sweep. Since we're talking about the exact cause of FSD, that specific combo has nothing to do with delayed OTG. Cap could have done c.HK xx HP Shield Slash which would have whiffed completely, but it would still be an example of FSD without any usage of OTG.

[NKI]

Magnetro could be right if it's simply that "laying on the ground for a long time" causes FSD, and not the actual OTG itself.

I guess that would make sense, too. If they programmed a rule that FS ends after you've been laying on the ground for 60 frames, but then they accidentally made a move that puts you on the ground for 65 frames (say, like Juggernaut Punch), FS would be broken before you ever OTG.

Just a theory. I have nothing to back that up with.

[Magnetro]

Ohh, I see what you're saying now, at first I meant to say that MvC2 was different because you needed to sweep the person. And for some reason I considered the OTG to be the FSD, not just the sweep. Sorry about that, Nick.

Edit*(/) Hm, that's true though, being on the ground for an extended period of time is what breaks FS.

Sweeps put the character in longer ground stun than normal FS knockdowns.

Second Edit*

Maj is still right, the sweep is what CAUSES the FSD, the reason is because you're on the ground longer than you should be.

[jchensor]

This thread will serve as the authoritative guide on how to perform FSD in the versus series. Please help me fill in the missing information...

MSH

• - hit on the last frame of hit-stun
  - combo a throw
  
  XSF
  • - hit on the last frame of hit-stun
    - combo a throw

I always consider those two essentially the same thing. Because you can only Throw in a Combo on the last frame of their hit stun in both of those games. So technically, you are comboing at the last frame of hit stun in both cases. From a programmer's standpoint, they are the same thing because they are triggered by the exact same bug. Except for the cases where you throw them during a ground bounce, but... after they bounce, they can't be Comboed anymore, right? So isn't that still technically the last frame of hit stun?

The problem is that there were some odd cases where you COULD Combo a Throw even before the last hit, but in all the cases I can think of, there was no Flying Screen involved (such as Storm's Throw into Air Throw). Can anyone think of a situation where you could throw in the MIDDLE of a reel during Flying Screen?

Edit: I remember MSH being hella random and confusing, Spidey sj.Fierce causes FS but if you hit them OTG it breaks it, Wolvie divekick->j.RH may or may not even cause FS but causes knockdown, etc etc.

I think in MSH, the "striaght down" FS didn't actually cause FS properties. I think it made the screen scroll fast, but didn't actually stop you from doing things afterwards. I may be wrong about that one, it's been a while.

As for Wolverine, the reason that happens is because Wolvie's Dive Kick put him into Jumping State the instant you activated it. So once you did it, no more Flying Screens could occur. I'm pretty sure it didn't knock down, did it? God, I can't remember anything about this game anymore.

- MvC I'm tempted to say they went back to the XSF engine and started from that because MSF was no fun. (^.^) It added assists which now break it, put back the trip thing, and kept the increased knockdown speed of FS attacks.

If I'm not mistaken, MvC actually didn't fix the hitting in the last frame problem... the only thing they did was just make it NOT appear on the Combometer. But if I recall correctly, things like SJ. Jab -> SJ.Short into Chun Air Super or Air Combo into Strider's DP + Punch would NOT registedr on the Combometer, but I remember reading that they still Comboed (you couldn't block it). There were other examples involving Red Venom's Infinite or something I thinkk. Am I mistaken on that? I swear I read about that before.

- James

[NKI]

Yeah, from a programming stand-point, "hit on the last frame" and "throw on the last frame" are pretty much the same, but I think it's worth breaking them out separately because I don't know that people would intuitively think that throwing works, if all you say is "hit on the last frame".

And in MvC1, there are several situations where the opponent can't block, but the combo counter resets. Right off the top of my head, this happens a lot with War Machine's normal jumping infinite, or if the opponent is being juggled by Strider's Orbs.

[Mike Z]

Actually, I would further say that the throw itself doesn't break FS (by virtue of being a throw, that is) since in MvC2 you can throw after a combo and keep FS on. Thanks Magnetro! (Never thought I'd say that...) It's only the last-frame thing that ever matters.

MSH Spidey Fierce causes FS. If you OTG too early and relaunch you can't sj, you have to wait to break FS with delayed OTG. Wolvie divekick makes the screen scroll like FS but puts you in normal jump and doesn't cause knockdown. Then there are things that break FS on their own like Shuma sj.D+Fierce. What a weird game.

MvC1 you could combo Chun's air super, and it totally showed up on the combometer. It also caused FS and wasn't a throw so er, what? And yep, they didn't fix hit-on-last-frame being unblockable, they just fixed the combometer, and that stuck in MvC2.

Mike Z

[wolverine-master]

in xvsf you can combo throws during flying screen.
also, i've seen toxy get an fsd from wolvie's midscreen infinite.
i know how fsd's work in xvsf, you have to see that pushback.
but wolvie's midscreen infinite isnt a problem for me.
what is the problem is, is that i cant or dont know when to get the fsd.
i've gotten this from corner to corner with a launncher at the end, still no fsd.
any light people?

[NKI]

Somewhere during the mid-screen infinite, he must have hit the opponent on the last frame of hit-stun, causing FSD.

[Magnetro]

oh yeah, i think joo found another type of fsd in mvc2.

it's based off a clip dj-b13 showed me which i showed joo. ive seen that stuff before but i never knew what it was.
you launch the opponent in the corner and set fs but OTG him the other way so that he rolls out of the corner. The guy who sets fs has to keep walking back into the corner, as long as he walks into the corner, he'll never come out of FS. In addition to 1 guy having permanent FS, the other guy can do whatever he wants (superjump, dash, specials etc.). Anyway, the person dashes toward the guy walking back into the corner and gets thrown...The throw will have different properties (that of fs) so when the throw knocks the person away, it won't be the normal distance.

Here is a clip of an FS throw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99n43z0X89A

Here is a clip of permanent FS: http://magnetro.com/GuileCornerFSD.avi