The Tool-Assistance Debate

[Maj]

There's Nothing Wrong with Tool-Assisted Combos on CX

Picking fights!

edit: Didn't realize this would be such a popular topic or i'd've put it in a new thread.

[onReload]

There's Nothing Wrong with Tool-Assisted Combos on CX

Picking fights!

I don't know anything about cyberfanatix - do they not admit to using any tool-assistance, or does hex let you do things that are totally impossible? If the latter...which?

[Maj]

You know how emulators make replay files that are essentially input recordings? Well, hexing is (hex) editing these replay files. I guess as long as you avoid editing the save state itself, it's a pretty safe form of tool-assistance.

Honestly i have no idea why the SNK community took this route, because it doesn't seem user-friendly or efficient to me whatsoever. But it's definitely the predominant form of tool-assistance in the SNK community. Not that i'm hating or anything. Genas5 produces excellent content utilizing this method, so it obviously works if you know what you're doing.

[Dark_Chaotix]

I can give you guys a brief history...

If you look at this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN0Mhlo5MbU , this is pretty much where cmv started with CX (well cyberfantics back then). Those combos for kof 2k2 that you see, are pretty much VS applicable and held much appreciation. Then you look at the transition between the years from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAK2oYLxxGw to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYl2b49xxAU to even http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1mxHup3DXE. In between all those combos vids and the years the ability to be creative became harder by hand and the idea of making better combos became a chore rather then a challenge. But even in the wee early days, hex was used (there are some combomakers that used it in the first vid stated above) but no one knew about it. It pretty much as a secret that the Chinese used and developed with the early stages of Emulation and it pretty became a party trick once people learnt on how to use it and what it can achieve.

Today, CMV's in SNK are all about what is possible in a games engine, while retaining creativity in the combos. And the problem with that is that there are still ignorant viewers that think that these combos are doable by hand. In which I dont blame them because there is no disclaimer to stipulate that a tool / program or whatever was used to produce it. In saying that, there are lots of secret even till this day that havent been revealed on how to do things or bugs / glitches. And thats the sad part, is that no one wants to sure with the world.

Examples of combomakers that use Hex with great creativity is Genas5 and Nino at the moment. But there are lots or Korean / Chinese players that do aswell.

I guess Im coming from the old school where I rather 30fps vids then http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0mrZgo-YIs or ArTs - fightingSTARS cmv and hardwork oer easy ways out of things....

I see Maj is trying to help, but it really think its a lost cause sometimes. We tried this years ago and nothing really took place or happened.

[Persona]

http://www.cyberfanatix.com/forums.php? ... ead#unread

[Maj]

Dark_Chaotix: What gives me hope is that if these people are still posting on CX, then they must still care about what their colleagues and the rest of the SNK community thinks. The language barrier hurts too. I think they're misunderstood a lot of the time. And i can sympathize with them because it sucks having to pay for the mistakes of several generations of video makers before them. I'm hoping that if everyone complains every time someone makes a TACV without a disclaimer, then it will gradually become mandatory.

Persona: Nice! We get a couple of people like that on SRK every year too. I guess some people think the fighting game community works like an anime.

[Dark_Chaotix]

Well, if they want their vids hosted on CX, then a disclaimer is mandatory from now on. I dont know about capcom community, but there are heaps of vids that are made by other groups and uploaded onto youtube that doesnt even pass our view. Is like Combovideo the place for Capcom vids?

[Maj]

There's no centralized host for the Capcom side. CV has been dead for ages. Everyone finds their own hosting, or puts it on random filesharing sites, or posts it on youtube. It's not very important, since everyone congregates on SRK. People can host on megaupload and it's fine because everyone will find out (and respond) through SRK anyway.

Good call on the mandatory disclaimer though.

[Dark_Chaotix]

Ill make a annoucement post about it later on, but i think it fair and will help in the future. Do Capcom players do that in their vids because I havent seen it in the ones I have.

[Maj]

Magnetro, Vega Omega, ShinjiGohan, Goryus, error1, and i use tool-assistance. We put disclaimers in our videos or at least in transcripts/youtube info text/announcements. I'd prefer it if everyone listed it in their videos, but as long as it's stated plainly somewhere prominent, that's enough for me.

NKI, jchensor, Kamui, mopreme, gilley, sicdic, SlimX, Mike Z, MrWhitefolks, Jinrai, ZenFire, and desk have always done their combos manually. Except NKI's last few Evo specials, but he included disclaimers in his transcripts.

Most of the big names above have been missing for a while, so if any of them came back to make a video, there's a good chance it would be tool-assisted because that's the way things are now. But i'd make sure they included a disclaimer in their video.

There are a few people who use tools without disclaimers, but they're in the minority.

I'm pretty sure several of the CPS1 Marvel crowd uses emu tools, but they've always been kinda confrontational about it so i haven't forced the issue. Anyway they don't make videos very often. I did pick a fight with one of them once and it caused a lot of drama, but he outright cheated so i couldn't avoid it.

Then there are the Japanese combo video makers, nearly all of whom used program pads but they never provided any kind of disclaimers so now everyone thinks all Japanese combo video makers use tools. The ones i know who perform combos manually are rKf, bea of Yellow Cyclone, and fia from Kanagawa.

[onReload]

Then there are the Japanese combo video makers, nearly all of whom used program pads but they never provided any kind of disclaimers so now everyone thinks all Japanese combo video makers use tools. The ones i know who perform combos manually are rKf, bea of Yellow Cyclone, and fia from Kanagawa.

538/KYSG has it listed before/after his 3s vids, but it's mentioned in an odd way. It's not a big disclaimer, it's more like "credits to xyz company name/model of pad used". Could be the language barrier again.

While I'm grateful for the examples, Dark_Chaotix, I couldn't even bare to watch half of those with the ridiculously long intros. I know it's a dead issue to bring up, but JESUS! Necesitan parar con los intros y creditos...

[Persona]

I'm tired of trying to get things through some hexer's heads. They're either playing it dumb or they're actually retarded. And I don't think the language barrier has anything to do with it because the guy replies just fine. In the end, this is what I think will happen and continue to happen:

1. They make a video
2. People bash it
3. Arguing occurs
4. Video dies within days
5. They waste their time making the video and makes themselves look bad, like usual
6. Rinse and repeat

They might as well not make a video then.

I should try asking him if he knows why the majority of people hate his vids. If he gives an answer like, "I don't care blah blah blah" then that solves everything, let him continue to waste his time and effort typing in keys. As you can see, most of the people who actually do praise their work are either their teammates, friends or people from the same country. This all feels like an inside community trying to get praise to the outside world but if they don't listen to their viewers, they're not going to get anywhere. I don't even remember the last time SRK mentioned one of these SNK combo videos.

And to be honest, I wouldn't even know who Maiden_Masher was if it wasn't for his boss video that got nuked by pretty much everyone very badly. He also really gave out poor attitude for his really poor video. I think he's looking for a shortcut to get fame into the combo community because why else make a cheap boss video if you everyone knows that it's going to get bashed one way or the other because of how cheap and simple boss combos are? I would've made one ages ago but I already know the results if I do make one and that is the result he got. I'm glad tobemorecrazy doesn't upload this stuff onto his youtube account.

I'm sure some people in his team don't see eye to eye with him, which sucks because he's bringing everyone in his team down along with him.

[Dark_Chaotix]

While I'm grateful for the examples, Dark_Chaotix, I couldn't even bare to watch half of those with the ridiculously long intros. I know it's a dead issue to bring up, but JESUS! Necesitan parar con los intros y creditos...

Thats the thing, the best editing is usually done in the intros / outros. But there are some good vids with ingame editing while combos are happening...

I guess that the difference from SNK to Capcom vid communities.

Magnetro, Vega Omega, ShinjiGohan, Goryus, error1, and i use tool-assistance. We put disclaimers in our videos or at least in transcripts/youtube info text/announcements. I'd prefer it if everyone listed it in their videos, but as long as it's stated plainly somewhere prominent, that's enough for me.

NKI, jchensor, Kamui, mopreme, gilley, sicdic, SlimX, Mike Z, MrWhitefolks, Jinrai, ZenFire, and desk have always done their combos manually. Except NKI's last few Evo specials, but he included disclaimers in his transcripts.

Most of the big names above have been missing for a while, so if any of them came back to make a video, there's a good chance it would be tool-assisted because that's the way things are now. But i'd make sure they included a disclaimer in their video.

There are a few people who use tools without disclaimers, but they're in the minority.

I'm pretty sure several of the CPS1 Marvel crowd uses emu tools, but they've always been kinda confrontational about it so i haven't forced the issue. Anyway they don't make videos very often. I did pick a fight with one of them once and it caused a lot of drama, but he outright cheated so i couldn't avoid it.

Then there are the Japanese combo video makers, nearly all of whom used program pads but they never provided any kind of disclaimers so now everyone thinks all Japanese combo video makers use tools. The ones i know who perform combos manually are rKf, bea of Yellow Cyclone, and fia from Kanagawa.

No offence, but i look at the MvC2 or cross games and to me they look like they use some kind of help with it. Im not sure and I dont knwo the game but that what it looks like to me.

I am a personal fan of desk / NKI / and Mike Z stuff from earlier sf stuff. I want desk to make another gief Vs ken vid again. So innovative I thought. But in seriousness, I can see that they are manual combo makers.

[Magnetro]

Interesting. Maybe I'll start adding that wrench watermark to my videos. I think that I don't bother posting very explicit title cards in my videos because I dont really care about the YoutubeCrowd's reactions. Everyone that watches my videos already knows that I use programmable controllers. The people that I want to like my videos already know how the whole ppad world works so there is no point in mentioning it for me.

[error1]

I really don't see why there's any controversy. Hanging around both sda and tasvideos I can tell you that speedrunners don't have any problem with tases and often adapt tricks from them. Both speed runners and tasers get annoyed when they see a tas that's not labeled as such.
There is the occasional youtube commenter who has no idea what he's talking about but no one takes that seriously.

Thats the thing, the best editing is usually done in the intros / outros. But there are some good vids with ingame editing while combos are happening...

I find the majority of editing in combovideos detract from the combos and make them harder to watch. I think maj Ryu Exhibition with all it's fancy editing is as much as you can do and still have the editing be a positive. Nothing there makes you want to stop watching, even the long ending credits has a lot going on.

[Maj]

I'm tired of trying to get things through some hexer's heads. They're either playing it dumb or they're actually retarded. And I don't think the language barrier has anything to do with it because the guy replies just fine.

He's definitely being evasive but there's no reason to get frustrated. Eventually he'll run out of excuses and back himself into a corner. One way or another, he has to face the facts. It's ok if it takes some time.

No offence, but i look at the MvC2 or cross games and to me they look like they use some kind of help with it. Im not sure and I dont knwo the game but that what it looks like to me.

It's rare for MvC2 because it's not emulated which means you have to get program pads, which are almost impossible to find nowadays. Then you have to get all the right converters and even then it's a lot harder than emu tools. As for the other Versus games, i can't be sure but i bet there are some people who use tools and also there are some people who do those crazy combos by hand.

I really don't see why there's any controversy.

There's controversy because the practice of using disclaimers isn't standard yet. And obviously some people are afraid of the backlash it would create. They can call it whatever they want - unnecessary, inconvenient, distracting - but all of it boils down to fear.

I find the majority of editing in combovideos detract from the combos and make them harder to watch. I think maj Ryu Exhibition with all it's fancy editing is as much as you can do and still have the editing be a positive. Nothing there makes you want to stop watching, even the long ending credits has a lot going on.

A lot of the criticism the SNK community gets along these lines is unfair. They went through a phase of experimenting with disruptive editing and for the most part they've scaled back. Now most of the editors reserve that stuff for trailers and keep the main videos relatively clean. If you don't like the intros, it's easy enough to skip right past them.

[onReload]

A lot of the criticism the SNK community gets along these lines is unfair. They went through a phase of experimenting with disruptive editing and for the most part they've scaled back. Now most of the editors reserve that stuff for trailers and keep the main videos relatively clean. If you don't like the intros, it's easy enough to skip right past them.

Yeah, you can skip the intros, but sometimes it's hard to tell when they're actually over - they might throw one or two combos between the last few credits, which makes me think I'm missing the main portion.

I'm also not a huge fan of CMVs usually, unless they have SE on and the BG muted; when I don't know a game very well (which is most of the time), I like to hear the sound effects to better understand what's going on.

[Persona]

Maj: from your latest post (the one saying fair enough), are you actually being honest with that post or was it more of a, "I'm tired of this shit, just get your shit right and we'll call it progress"? To me it kind of sounds like the latter lol (no offence).

[Maj]

Well, i don't think he's dumb but i think he's playing dumb. And there's definitely a language barrier problem even though he probably understands most of what we're saying. I feel bad for him because he can't express everything he wants to say.

In any case, he's only one part of the problem. There are other people we need to discuss this issue with. It's clear that he's not interested in giving us anything more than the minimal amount of cooperation, so i'd like to clear the air for other CX members to join the debate.

[Siedler Pompiani]

Like I said before in another forum:

Code: Select all

Since now all Ultracombo´s videos will notice the use of tools if used, not because are imposing, asking or suggesting, because that´s the right thing to do for a lot of reasons. About using a warning next to the name of the maker will be decided in a vote with the makers, because we usually make videos with other teams, but at the end of each video will have the warning.

Eu não serei mais imparcial em outros fóruns também, acabou essa frescura de me atacarem sempre e eu não fazer nada por respeito e à respeito.

[Maj]

Anyone here speak Portuguese?

Eu não serei mais imparcial em outros fóruns também, acabou essa frescura de me atacarem sempre e eu não fazer nada por respeito e à respeito.

[Siedler Pompiani]

That was to another forum, it happened because I post in a lot of forums and I write every thing in the wordpad first.

Says: I´ll not be impartial anymore in some forums, I´m tired to be attacked and do nothing etc.

[Maj]

No worries, i was just wondering what it meant. Thanks for translating.

Hey so what exactly is KoFUnion? Is it just three guys? Darkone, Lostheaven, and Lost Feather? How long have they been using tool-assistance? Every time they make a video for a game, it's one of the best. Even their Capcom stuff is good.

[Siedler Pompiani]

No worries, i was just wondering what it meant. Thanks for translating.

Hey so what exactly is KoFUnion? Is it just three guys? Darkone, Lostheaven, and Lost Feather? How long have they been using tool-assistance? Every time they make a video for a game, it's one of the best. Even their Capcom stuff is good.

KofUnion is a kof comunity in china and they are approx. 50 makers. They practically invented tool-assisted, I´ll get more information about KU today.

[Dark_Chaotix]

No worries, i was just wondering what it meant. Thanks for translating.

Hey so what exactly is KoFUnion? Is it just three guys? Darkone, Lostheaven, and Lost Feather? How long have they been using tool-assistance? Every time they make a video for a game, it's one of the best. Even their Capcom stuff is good.

KofUnion is a kof comunity in china and they are approx. 50 makers. They practically invented tool-assisted, I´ll get more information about KU today.

Well KofUnion is a collaboration of heaps of members. And yes they do make some of the best vids out there, cos they are so quick to get a new game and go at it. Ive said before, Lost Feather KofXII is the benchmark atm and with the games limited combo system, he did pretty well. He is a beast in arcades apparently too.

Its too bad that they dont contribute to english forums