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What the hell does Guy have? Hella one-dimensional. All i've got is random links. I'm sure close s.HK, far s.HP, far s.MP xx blah works on someone. Almost worked on Seth but not quite. His frame data says he gets +3 on s.LP -> s.MP -> s.HP but he has no attacks that hit on the 3rd frame. I tried s.LP -> s.MP -> s.HP -> whiff D+HK, blah but that didn't work either because it looks like +0 after D+HK recovery.

Seriously. Boring. What am i missing?

I still haven't seen a run stop combo with Guy, break out some close mp, it's like an fadc but for free

Alright let's talk Makoto. What can this chick do? Seems like everything she has is based on simple juggle potentials instead of juggle setups. Kinda disappointing considering her main gimmick is a launcher.

Can she even dash-cancel uppunch? I know she can jump-cancel it and i know she can dash-cancel the one at the end of her non-cinematic ultra2.

Also her super sucks. Basically she has to give up EX dashpunch to use it, which means she loses most of her juggle potential. Fully charged dashpunch is completely useless too. It would've been interesting to see it combo into ultra1 just for the sake of damage, but ultra1 has no juggle potential.

Is there any way to combo her Super to Abare Tosanami without just doing [Super, FA2/3, Ultra]? That might be something worth searching for. I'd also look into her Hayate cancel for link possibilities (never fully explored in 3s, but she was way more beastly there), and one of the guys in the poll that Doopliss was in had her do an armor cancel into ultra by way of her EX Karakusa. Dunno if that gives you anything.

Yeah I was wondering why I haven't seen some one trying to recreate the ridiculous stun combos she had in SF3 with her Abare (u2), but I guess they just aren't the same in SF4. Though j.HP HP EX Hayate itself already does a ton of stun, lol.

Also yeah, her Hayate cancel was crap in SF3 because there was an 8F suki iirc, which limited it horribly. I don't think the same suki exists in SF4. Doesn't surprise me though, it still irks me there was a 7F throw inv window after hitstun/blockstun/wakeup that does not exist in SF4.

[edit]
<Xenozip> in 3s hayate cancel was 6f for the cancel and then like 8f before you could act
I guess my memory's not so bad.

Hm, looks like counterhit s.MP xx dashpunch cancel gives +4 because she can link into s.LP but not s.MP.

Non-counterhit s.HP xx dashpunch cancel gives +5 because she can link into s.MP but not s.HP. I'm surprised they were that careful because dashpunch cancel doesn't move her forward at all. Anyway i guess i can do counterhit s.HP xx dashpunch cancel, s.HP xx dashpunch cancel, s.MP xx dashpunch xx super, s.HP xx dashpunch cancel, s.MP xx blah. In theory.

Whoa, looks like she can still dash/jump-cancel her ultra2 even if she gets the full cinematic. But i guess she no longer gets a free juggle out of it. Still, she can combo uppunch and maybe some EX dash punches or something.

Apparently she only gets a free juggle out of ultra2 if she gets the non-cimenatic animation and if the juggle count had been at 0 before. So it's basically like the second hit of Ken's HP DP.

Aw, looks like Makoto's F+LP+LK headbutt throw is invincible until way after. LP Soul Spark passes right through her. Dudley's rose passes through her too but that might be because she takes too long. Sometimes that rose and Ibuki's knives can hit things that should be projectile invincible.

I know her EX moves are important, but what about Supering in the midst of a combo? (and not like hayate xx tanden renki blah)... too easy?

Any medium attack you cancel into super gives plenty of time to combo into stuff. I don't think it's possible to super in the middle of a link unless it's some crazy counterhit meaty thing. I think i have three Makoto combos though. Should be enough.

Makoto's Close Roundhouse does 250 stun base, which makes me think stun combo.

Maj, the rose, and ibuki's kunais hit projectile invincible things because they are not a projectile.They are considered physical attacks.They have a red hitbox.Bison's ex psycho crusher, on the other hand, is a projectile, while his regular one is a physical attack, and viper burn kicks are also projectiles, except for the first hits of EX burn kick, which are physical hits.That's why EX PC eats fireballs, and that's why burn kicks can negate fireballs.Criminal upper is also a projectile, thus being able to eat up the entire Yoga Catastrophe.Fei's EX rekka is also a projectile.
Also, here's a weird one: Rufus' galactic tornado is ALSO a projectile, all the versions, all it's hits, even the punch to your face hit, aka the last hit.So i guess every move that eats up projectiles is a projectile on it's own.

Rufus wrote:Makoto's Close Roundhouse does 250 stun base, which makes me think stun combo.

Yeah, and the vertical jump+HP does 250 stun too, and with counter hit, the stun is 312! crazy for a first hit combo. If you simply connect vertical HP->sHK->focus cancel you can make over 600 of stun...
I have a so easy stun combo with her against Seth:
With counter, you can jump vertically+HP->sHP->dashpunch->supercancel->sHK. the stun is around 783 I think. If you use the QCB+PP does stun too, and I think more damage. Then, if you make the U2 and finally try to hit again with axel kick and Ex Hayate ( or something more elaborate) the Seth´s life is near the full life combo, over the 685. I guess is possible to make a "touch of death" against him with Makoto...
Also works sHP (counter)-> QCB+MP->supercancel->sHP->QCB+PP.

Makoto's main problem is her best normals do crap damage. Yeah she can do a lot of stun but so what? She wouldn't have any problem dizzying Seth even if she only had 200 stun normals. She'd be way better off with 110 or 120 damage fierces that did 200 stun instead of 100 damage jump attacks and 80 damage s.HP ruining her damage output.

Right now i've got raged counterhit lvl3 HP dashpunch, ultra1 as a natural link doing 690 damage against Seth. I don't know if she can beat that. Every move you put in front of raged ultra1 reduces its damage by 60 points. By the fourth move of a combo, she's reaaaally struggling to do anything that's over 60 points.

You can do counterhit lvl3 HP dashpunch, s.HP xx HP dashpunch xx super, blah blah dizzy but you just lost the super bonus on the first two hits, bringing them down from 319 to 255! That's 64 points.

Yeah, she's got problems.

Some random numbers ...

counterhit lvl3 HP dashpunch xx super, F+HP -> HP = 419 damage, 507 stun
counterhit MP chop xx super, F+HP -> HP = 369 damage, 570 stun
counterhit s.HP xx MP chop xx super, F+HP -> HP = 406 damage, 715 stun
counterhit lvl3 HP dashpunch, s.HP xx lvl2 MP dashpunch xx super, s.MP xx lvl2 MP dashpunch = 500 damage, 716 stun

counterhit lvl3 HP dashpunch, s.HP xx lvl2 MP dashpunch xx super, s.MP xx lvl2 MP dashpunch (fake dizzy), ultra1 = 723 damage
counterhit lvl3 HP dashpunch xx super, F+HP -> HP (fake dizzy), ultra1 = 752 damage

s.HP xx HP dashpunch = 190 damage
s.HP xx MP dashpunch = 180 damage
s.HP xx lvl2 MP dashpunch = 195 damage

Maj wrote:Yeah, she's got problems.

She is atoning for her SF3 sins.

Like claw atoning for.. well.. every game he has ever been in.

If you can get the animation, U2 -> RH Axekick will frequently do a little more damage than U1 does.

Are there any good ways to combo into U2 other than Focus Attack?

it doesn't provide a free juggle unless it hits on the ground

Rufus wrote:
Are there any good ways to combo into U2 other than Focus Attack?

Not many:

FA -> Ultra

Hayate (hitting air & Trading) -> Ultra

Up Punch (Fukiage) - Ultra

However her ultra is layed out like this her 4 hits are

JP1+ -> JP1+ -> JP1+ -> JP1

The + means that it holds the current jugglestate. which means if you hit it on JP1 the enemy ends on JP2, which means theonly thing you can do after that's worth while for damage is EX Axe kick.

HK version has JP1+ on every hit.

Well, the non-cinematic version leaves them in free juggle state if it's the first hit or if it connects during crumple fall. So the last hit can't be increasing the juggle count all the time. It's also worth testing how it behaves if it connects during a free juggle state, like after anti-air lvl3 Focus Attack.

On the other hand, that Day Seventeen clip shows that if it connects during standard knockdown, it raises the juggle count to one, because EX dashpunch has a juggle potential of two. So why else would the second EX dashpunch whiff?

Btw SRK's Makoto data lists EX dashpunch as "juggle (3+)" which must be inaccurate.

Maj wrote:Well, the non-cinematic version leaves them in free juggle state if it's the first hit or if it connects during crumple fall. So the last hit can't be increasing the juggle count all the time. It's also worth testing how it behaves if it connects during a free juggle state, like after anti-air lvl3 Focus Attack.

On the other hand, that Day Seventeen clip shows that if it connects during standard knockdown, it raises the juggle count to one, because EX dashpunch has a juggle potential of two. So why else would the second EX dashpunch whiff?

Btw SRK's Makoto data lists EX dashpunch as "juggle (3+)" which must be inaccurate.

Makoto's Dash punch (EX) is JP2

The highest JP she has is JP2-3 with her EX Axe Kick.

HK version has JP1+ on every hit.

eh, not really. after a quick test, if you hit someone in airborne state every hits is JP1+

HOWEVER you hit an enemy on JP (Say,after a Fukiage) then the final hit raises the counter... Lame.

Does his mean She has an infinite in which she can do her ultra indefinately? (obviously with infinite meter)

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Maj how in the heck did you dash out of the last bit of her ultra? i thought it was only jump out of-able.


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Of course all this is just mindless F'ing about when i was playing with her, i haven't got round to her to test her thoroughly yet, still only on Honda.

In 3S, all of her uppunches were dash-cancelable as well as jump-cancelable. I guess they made her uppunch only jump-cancelable in SSF4 but the one at the end of her ultra2 is still dash-cancelable. She can't seem to do Viper's jump-cancel -> focus xx dash trick either, nor can she cancel uppunch jump-cancel startup into specials.

Maj wrote:In 3S, all of her uppunches were dash-cancelable as well as jump-cancelable. I guess they made her uppunch only jump-cancelable in SSF4 but the one at the end of her ultra2 is still dash-cancelable. She can't seem to do Viper's jump-cancel -> focus xx dash trick either, nor can she cancel uppunch jump-cancel startup into specials.

Ah, funny i never tried simply dashing, about the dash cancelled fukiage. could be something they considered having but just forgot to remove it from the ending of her Ultra.


Either way competetively, i know it's early days but Makoto has a shit load of problems in alot of matchups.

so i guess maximum damage you could do after her ultra is a non-aimated ultra to EX Fukiage -> EX Fukiage -> EX Axe Kick

How much does her non animated Ultra do again; 400?

Nah it's only 210 damage for non-cinematic ultra2 and only 390 damage for full ultra2. It's crap.

I think the theoretical best ultra2 juggle combo is lvl3 Focus Attack (trade), lvl3 Focus Attack xx dash, ultra2 xx dash, HP uppunch, HP uppunch, EX dashpunch, EX axekick. That leaves two meters for FADC to set up the axekick, but either way it's unlikely to connect. If by some miracle it works without FADC, the HP uppunches can be replaced with EX uppunches.

Maj wrote:Nah it's only 210 damage for non-cinematic ultra2 and only 390 damage for full ultra2. It's crap.

I think the theoretical best ultra2 juggle combo is lvl3 Focus Attack (trade), lvl3 Focus Attack xx dash, ultra2 xx dash, HP uppunch, HP uppunch, EX dashpunch, EX axekick. That leaves two meters for FADC to set up the axekick, but either way it's unlikely to connect. If by some miracle it works without FADC, the HP uppunches can be replaced with EX uppunches.

lol to Focus attacks? At double scaling that would destroy the meter. the next strike would do 60% & because you're third hit is an ultra you'd only be doing 50%... & HP Up punch does 100 whilst EX does 140

... That said, 210 WTF... i mean i know she gets a damage boost when raged & they have to account for that, but man that's low.

I mean best for juggles, not best for damage. Like i said earlier, she might never top 690.

Just had an idea for a combo, not sure if this is in videos yet. With Juri:

cr.LK, st.LK, cr.MP xx MK pinwheel xx FADC, cl.LK, cr.MP xx MK pinwheel xx FADC, cl.LK, cr.MP, release HK fireball, j.MP, dive kick, ultra2

Not too complicated really, but still kinda difficult to do with lots of 1 frame links.
Also you can probably add stuff at the beginning with LK and MK FBs maybe...

I don't know what any of that means : (

Fuck, i'm gonna have to learn this hooker between now and Tuesday, aren't i?

I swear she must have some advanced stuff tho. She seems made for programmable controllers because nobody can hold 3 buttons while doing 1 frame links and let of of each button at the right time... (I'm sure this will be proven wrong very quickly )

More random numbers ...

counterhit j.HP, s.HK xx super, s.HP xx lvl2 MP dashpunch (Seth dizzy), ultra1 = 688 damage
counterhit j.HP, s.HK xx super, s.HP xx lvl2 MP dashpunch (Seth dizzy), meaty lvl3 HP dashpunch, ultra1 = 715 damage (whoo!)

Yeah i think this is all she's got. Anyway i'm done with this. On the plus side, it is midscreen which is nice.