Weird Alpha 2/3 thing? glitch?
Weird Alpha 2/3 thing? glitch?
Was messing around on the alpha 2 and 3 games lately and worked out Evil Ryu and Akuma can cancel into raging demon off any normal (even non special/super cancelable normals) e.g toward + mp overhead, but it doesnt happen in alpha 1, anyway just a strange thing i found which i dont think has much use for, although towards + mk > raging demon is a pretty good RD setup.
Do you mean kara-cancel F+MP overhead into Raging Demon? Or cancel after it connects? Cuz kara-cancel is pretty common, but i don't remember seeing it canceled after it connects.
The F+MK hopkick is a different story. That thing can cancel into any special move in A3, but there's a very small window to do it. It's kind of a glitch, i guess. A lot of good Ryu/Akuma players use it.
Bas (V-Akuma) does F+MK hopkick xx HP DP at 5:12 in this match video.
The F+MK hopkick is a different story. That thing can cancel into any special move in A3, but there's a very small window to do it. It's kind of a glitch, i guess. A lot of good Ryu/Akuma players use it.
Bas (V-Akuma) does F+MK hopkick xx HP DP at 5:12 in this match video.
What i mean is you can cancel into raging demon anytime during any standing normal in the game, whiff, block or hit.
Dont know about alpha 3 engine at all really, i only tried what i tried on alpha 2 to see if its the same in alpha 3, and you can still do stuff like towards mp > demon etc.
But with the hopkick thing in a2, you cant cancel into demon while in air ofcourse since demon has to be on ground, but as soon as u land you can cancel into it, whereas you usualy have a lag on the end of it befor you can do anything else.
I just posted this stuff just to see if anyone would have any idea why raging demon is able to cancel of any standing normal, where some of the normals aint super/special cancelable but yet demon can cancel any of them, im guessing raging demon isnt classified as a super/special in the engine or something weird like that.
heres an example
http://www.toxy.combovideos.com/a2ragingdemon.avi
Just hoping some other characters super have this strange property, maybe all throw supers or something... guess ill test it out i might be able to find something cool with it.
Dont know about alpha 3 engine at all really, i only tried what i tried on alpha 2 to see if its the same in alpha 3, and you can still do stuff like towards mp > demon etc.
But with the hopkick thing in a2, you cant cancel into demon while in air ofcourse since demon has to be on ground, but as soon as u land you can cancel into it, whereas you usualy have a lag on the end of it befor you can do anything else.
I just posted this stuff just to see if anyone would have any idea why raging demon is able to cancel of any standing normal, where some of the normals aint super/special cancelable but yet demon can cancel any of them, im guessing raging demon isnt classified as a super/special in the engine or something weird like that.
heres an example
http://www.toxy.combovideos.com/a2ragingdemon.avi
Just hoping some other characters super have this strange property, maybe all throw supers or something... guess ill test it out i might be able to find something cool with it.
I would guess it's like that because it's the only special that requiers an input that is mostly buttons and not stick commands. The Kara cancelling of jab and short makes sense and maybe capcom just thought the move itself was difficult so that if you happened to hit any button randomly on the way to fierce you still get the demon. Interesting you say it isn't in alpha 1 though... maybe people complained it was too tough or something. I can't really see it but it's a theory.
Raging demon is like that in every game it's in. Quite useful in 3s. Actually, every super that contains multiple button presses is like that in every Capcom game (i.e. Morrigan, Anakaris, Hsien-ko, etc can use their button-tap supers off chains easily because it will ALWAYS cancel, getting around Darkstalkers' stupid cancelling rules. This is even one of the things that makes Hsien-ko good).
Desk's guess is pretty close. It seems the reason they did this was because the move contains MULTIPLE button presses. Unlike a fireball, where the button is at the end so allowing kara-cancelling in 3 frames is enough, if you do the RD motion at medium speed, you end up trying to execute the move while you're in the middle of a fully animating Short or Jab. Since this normal may not have connected with the opponent, but the player may still be trying for a RD, Capcom made the nicest possible decision and allowed it to cancel whiffed normals at any point. It was probably easier to program this for all normals instead of Jab/Short as a special case (plus that same exception works for all the other weird button-tap motions) therefore you end up with what we have.
Mike Z
Desk's guess is pretty close. It seems the reason they did this was because the move contains MULTIPLE button presses. Unlike a fireball, where the button is at the end so allowing kara-cancelling in 3 frames is enough, if you do the RD motion at medium speed, you end up trying to execute the move while you're in the middle of a fully animating Short or Jab. Since this normal may not have connected with the opponent, but the player may still be trying for a RD, Capcom made the nicest possible decision and allowed it to cancel whiffed normals at any point. It was probably easier to program this for all normals instead of Jab/Short as a special case (plus that same exception works for all the other weird button-tap motions) therefore you end up with what we have.
Mike Z
That kinda adds up, if you think about it. Akuma didn't have Raging Demon in arcade ST, so SFA1 was the first time it showed up. Even then, A1 Akuma was a secret character (and SFA1 was one of the most bootleg fighting games ever made by Capcom) so they probably didn't worry about it too much. Then people must have complained that it was too difficult, so they made it easier in A2.
Actually i remember a portion of jchensor's CvS1 guide talking about how Raging Demon commands are specifically more lenient than regular super moves. He must have mentioned it because there are three characters with Raging Demon moves in CvS1: Akuma, Evil Ryu, and Morrigan. Also because he's a Darkstalkers fan. Also because it's tough finding things to talk about when you're talking about CvS1.
Anyway, it was pretty cool seeing A2 Akuma cancel F+MP overhead into Raging Demon. I think A3 X-Akuma can actually combo into Raging Demon. You might want to play around with that for a minute.
Actually i remember a portion of jchensor's CvS1 guide talking about how Raging Demon commands are specifically more lenient than regular super moves. He must have mentioned it because there are three characters with Raging Demon moves in CvS1: Akuma, Evil Ryu, and Morrigan. Also because he's a Darkstalkers fan. Also because it's tough finding things to talk about when you're talking about CvS1.
Anyway, it was pretty cool seeing A2 Akuma cancel F+MP overhead into Raging Demon. I think A3 X-Akuma can actually combo into Raging Demon. You might want to play around with that for a minute.
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fullmetalross
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yeah this is def how it works, capcom does this with all there mutiple button press moves, thats why in darkstalkers you can cancel into those kind of moves even in chains, which aren't normally cancelable in darkstalkers.Mike Z wrote:Raging demon is like that in every game it's in. Quite useful in 3s. Actually, every super that contains multiple button presses is like that in every Capcom game (i.e. Morrigan, Anakaris, Hsien-ko, etc can use their button-tap supers off chains easily because it will ALWAYS cancel, getting around Darkstalkers' stupid cancelling rules. This is even one of the things that makes Hsien-ko good).
Desk's guess is pretty close. It seems the reason they did this was because the move contains MULTIPLE button presses. Unlike a fireball, where the button is at the end so allowing kara-cancelling in 3 frames is enough, if you do the RD motion at medium speed, you end up trying to execute the move while you're in the middle of a fully animating Short or Jab. Since this normal may not have connected with the opponent, but the player may still be trying for a RD, Capcom made the nicest possible decision and allowed it to cancel whiffed normals at any point. It was probably easier to program this for all normals instead of Jab/Short as a special case (plus that same exception works for all the other weird button-tap motions) therefore you end up with what we have.
Mike Z
Hm, i recall seeing it in a few different A3 combo videos, but i can't find it in any of them on youtube. Chances are, one of the members here has even done that Raging Demon combo in a video before.
However, there were a few unrelated SFA3 combovids on youtube that i found interesting:
Street Fighter Alpha 3 Tricks and Combo Glitches by Xenozip
- shows a huge range of random A3 knowledge, from combo setups to practical strategies
Street Fighter Zero 3 OoasiCombo by ???
- sweep juggle VC's performed against Juli, whose hitbox seems to extend unusually low during air reel
A3 Basic Links and Cross-ups by Lomo the kid
- simple link encyclopedia, useful as a reference if anyone wants to make a more advance combo video for this game
However, there were a few unrelated SFA3 combovids on youtube that i found interesting:
Street Fighter Alpha 3 Tricks and Combo Glitches by Xenozip
- shows a huge range of random A3 knowledge, from combo setups to practical strategies
Street Fighter Zero 3 OoasiCombo by ???
- sweep juggle VC's performed against Juli, whose hitbox seems to extend unusually low during air reel
A3 Basic Links and Cross-ups by Lomo the kid
- simple link encyclopedia, useful as a reference if anyone wants to make a more advance combo video for this game
I think it was with Shin Akuma. Shin Akuma can Combo into his Raging Demon off of anything. It's HELLA broken. Jump, Meaty Air Fireball, Raging Demon. If they get hit by the Raging Demon, it Combos. If they BLOCK THE AIR FIREBALL, you grab them out of Block Stun. If you knock them down and Raging Demon when they get up, NO CHARACTER CAN JUMP AWAY before getting grabbed by it. Alpha 3 Shin Akuma Raging Demon is the most broken the Raging Demon has ever been. If you saw someone combo into it, that's gotta be how it happened.
As for canceling the Overhead into Raging Demon, that was my all-time favorite Akuma trick in CvS1. People would see it, react by standing up, and then before it hit, he Raging Demons and the guy can't jump away anymore. I actually used it and landed it against Valle in a NorCal team tourney once. It was one of my only victories against Valle ever in a tourney. But I really didn't do ANY work. My partner was Ricky Ortiz, and he killed everyone with Nakoruru. Up until the finals against Valle and Choi, I had to kill one guy with one pixel left. Ricky killed everyone else. And everytime I had to step up in the Finals, I swear Ricky had already killed 75% of their team.
- James
As for canceling the Overhead into Raging Demon, that was my all-time favorite Akuma trick in CvS1. People would see it, react by standing up, and then before it hit, he Raging Demons and the guy can't jump away anymore. I actually used it and landed it against Valle in a NorCal team tourney once. It was one of my only victories against Valle ever in a tourney. But I really didn't do ANY work. My partner was Ricky Ortiz, and he killed everyone with Nakoruru. Up until the finals against Valle and Choi, I had to kill one guy with one pixel left. Ricky killed everyone else. And everytime I had to step up in the Finals, I swear Ricky had already killed 75% of their team.
- James
Is proximity cancel in any other games than Alpha 3? can guy do his proximity cancel chain in A2? (Im able to do proxy cancel in A3 yet not in A2, thats why im guessing it doesn't work, or maybe the timing is more strict?)
Also i was messin with Guy on alpha 2 today and realised he can connect a hurricane after his final fight chain and his kick throw, didn't know it worked befor heh.
Also i was messin with Guy on alpha 2 today and realised he can connect a hurricane after his final fight chain and his kick throw, didn't know it worked befor heh.
Proximity Cancels have existed in other games, definitely. But... first thing's first. Let's not call them Proximity Cancels anymore. Renda Kara Cancels, I think, is the current term for it. ^_^ The reason it used to be called Proximity Cancels is because, when Derek Daniels and John Choi first started to write an article about it for Alpha 3, they believed it only worked when you were really close to the opponent... thus, the use of the word "proximity." But it has long since been proven distance has nothing to do with it (see all "tip-of-Low-Fierce Renda Kara Canceled into a Level 3 super" combos with Gen).
Back to the topic at hand: the original SFII series has had them all along, but not in too many practical situations... and particularly because players weren't good enough to use them in any good way anyhow. The most practical situations come into play in ST, where Renda Kara Canceling is how Ken does Low Short x 2 into Super. Guile can similarly do Low Short x 2 into Razor Kick with it and all sorts of other random tricks. The only thing with the SF2 games is that you could only Renda Kara Cancel Rapid Fire Weak Attacks by switching from Standing to Crouching or Crouching to Standing. So Low Short x 2 would chain into STAND Short which would be Kara Canceled into the Super.
Another game I know that it's in there is CvS1. I would do Morrigna Low Fierce into Fireball as a poke (using Renda Kara Cancels) in actual matches a lot (even though a Level 3 super would eat me up if they had it, since it's not a Combo). But in CvS2, they took it away from Morrigan.
Also, Guy can do Final Fight Chain and Kick Throw into Hurricane Kick in Alpha 2?? I can't say I ever recall seeing that before, but at my age, your memory does start to go on you. Which version have you reproduced this on?
- James
Back to the topic at hand: the original SFII series has had them all along, but not in too many practical situations... and particularly because players weren't good enough to use them in any good way anyhow. The most practical situations come into play in ST, where Renda Kara Canceling is how Ken does Low Short x 2 into Super. Guile can similarly do Low Short x 2 into Razor Kick with it and all sorts of other random tricks. The only thing with the SF2 games is that you could only Renda Kara Cancel Rapid Fire Weak Attacks by switching from Standing to Crouching or Crouching to Standing. So Low Short x 2 would chain into STAND Short which would be Kara Canceled into the Super.
Another game I know that it's in there is CvS1. I would do Morrigna Low Fierce into Fireball as a poke (using Renda Kara Cancels) in actual matches a lot (even though a Level 3 super would eat me up if they had it, since it's not a Combo). But in CvS2, they took it away from Morrigan.
Also, Guy can do Final Fight Chain and Kick Throw into Hurricane Kick in Alpha 2?? I can't say I ever recall seeing that before, but at my age, your memory does start to go on you. Which version have you reproduced this on?
- James
Thanks for clearing that up James, too many of these cancel words get me confused, i allways just looked at ST's rapid fire shorts/jabs into super/special as kara canceling, and i thought renda canceling was canceling standing attacks into jumping attacks.
So basically the difference of kara canceling and renda kara canceling is that renda kara is cancelinga chain into a special/super and kara is just canceling a single attack into a special/super?
But yeah anyway i think i understand the terminology now, i tried to do guy's renda kara and still cant get it to work in A2, do you know if it works in it?
Also the FF chain and throw into Hurricane i did on a2 and z2a, you have to chain into hk early after pressting hp because you need him to be close to opponent so it can connect.
So basically the difference of kara canceling and renda kara canceling is that renda kara is cancelinga chain into a special/super and kara is just canceling a single attack into a special/super?
But yeah anyway i think i understand the terminology now, i tried to do guy's renda kara and still cant get it to work in A2, do you know if it works in it?
Also the FF chain and throw into Hurricane i did on a2 and z2a, you have to chain into hk early after pressting hp because you need him to be close to opponent so it can connect.
Yeah, Proximity Cancels is the right terminology you were using, but Derek has since said to me that he wishes that term would go away because they named it that on a perception that didn't exist. ^_^
And as far as I can tell, that's the difference between Renda Kara Cancels and just plain ol' Kara Cancels: the mere fact that you are using it in the middle of Chain Combos. It only applies to Rapid Fire Weak Attacks in the classic SF2 games because, as you know, once you go from one weak attack to the second one, all Buffering gets turned off.
And sorry, I think my question wasn't specific enough. ^_^ Which version of Alpha 2 did you try this on? MAME? Kawaks? Saturn? PlayStation?
- James
And as far as I can tell, that's the difference between Renda Kara Cancels and just plain ol' Kara Cancels: the mere fact that you are using it in the middle of Chain Combos. It only applies to Rapid Fire Weak Attacks in the classic SF2 games because, as you know, once you go from one weak attack to the second one, all Buffering gets turned off.
And sorry, I think my question wasn't specific enough. ^_^ Which version of Alpha 2 did you try this on? MAME? Kawaks? Saturn? PlayStation?
- James
Oh i tried it on arcade version with fba emulator, Im not sure if it works on everyone but I've only tried it on 2 characters so far, Rolento and Ryu, it works on Rolento but not Ryu, or maybe it does but im just timing it wrong against him, so not sure if it works vs everyone or if its character specific.
I can upload a vid if you want to see it.
I can upload a vid if you want to see it.
Yeah, renda canceling is just kara canceling inside of a chain. In old school SF, there were no (intended) chains other than Jabs/Shorts*, and so the term "renda cancel" was only used in reference to Jabs and Shorts. The same concept applies to the chains in new games (like with Guy's chains), so I think it's fair to call those renda cancels as well.
*There were CPS1-chains too, but that's a whole 'nother topic.
*There were CPS1-chains too, but that's a whole 'nother topic.
"Chain Cancel" makes more sense, because that's exactly what it is. You go from one normal move into another normal move in a chain and cancel the new move during the start-up frames. So chained-kara-cancel. Although in Guy's case his combo is more of a Target Combo than a Chain Combo, but close enough.
Looks like Jolly Ranchers & Baskin's Sherbet.
You are correct: renda = rapid firelaugh wrote:I'm pretty sure the term Renda is Japanese for Rapid Fire, so if the term renda kara cancel hasn't been used a lot, it could be called rapid fire kara cancel for easier understanding of the term for us english speaking folks.
I think I like "chain cancel" though. It's simple, and the name accurately conveys what you're doing.
This might sound dumb, but what do you guys consider to be the difference between a chain and a target combo? I've allways been of the opinion that everything that cancels a normal into another normal is a chain, including dial-a-combos from marvel games. Then I believe I first saw ppl start using the term target combo in SF3, which I thought was a superfluous term, since "chains" already covered that. Even though I first saw it regarding 3S, whenever someone talks about Ken's strong>fierce they call it a chain... so yeah... where the hell did "target combo" come from? Maj's SF notation article doesn't mention the word 'target' at all; I just checked 
To not deviate too much, it's a pitty renda canc... uh... chain canceling disappeared in later SF's, it's a neat way to add to the execution vocabulary.
To not deviate too much, it's a pitty renda canc... uh... chain canceling disappeared in later SF's, it's a neat way to add to the execution vocabulary.
Yeah, for some reason, I think they were just called Target Combos for 3rd Strike. I've always just assumed that's just what Chain Combos were called in Third Strike.
That game seems to get to use all sorts of random names. I mean, after playing so much Vampire, I'd've expected Enhanced Specials to be called ES Specials. But in 3S, they are EX Specials, which were the names of the pure Supers in Vampire games. And what do they call Supers in 3S? Super Arts. Not just Super Combos or Supers, but Super Arts.
And what do they call Custom Combos? Genei-Jin. I mean, really!
- James
That game seems to get to use all sorts of random names. I mean, after playing so much Vampire, I'd've expected Enhanced Specials to be called ES Specials. But in 3S, they are EX Specials, which were the names of the pure Supers in Vampire games. And what do they call Supers in 3S? Super Arts. Not just Super Combos or Supers, but Super Arts.
And what do they call Custom Combos? Genei-Jin. I mean, really!
- James
Actually I prefer "Chain" and "Magic Chain". The difference being that a Chain can simply mean any normal canceled into another normal. Where-as "Magic Chain" referred to the game's universal priority system on normals
(Usually Low->Medium->High and Punch->Kick). But Chains in most games usually allow you to skip steps.
X-Men:CotA is the earliest game I can think of that had specific rules to what you could normal->normal cancel; like Spiral could cancel ground Kick to ground Punch only. And that meant she could do things like HK->LP or c.MK->HP. Likewise, Storm could only go from Punch to Kick on the ground, but not from Kick to Punch. Which means both characters had "Chains", but only had access to the "Magic Chain" in the air.
In 3S there isn't a "Magic Chain" system, just char-specific Chains. Only reason I sometimes like the term Target Combo at all is because when I hear "targetcombo" I assume that means very strict canceling rules and timing, and you can't skip any steps. I mean, some of the 3S "chains" were stuff like "back+MK -> toward+MK" (Ibuki) and "c.HK -> HK" (Ibuki), which are completely unintuitive in the sense that they use the same "Strength" attack. And in most Chains from other games you could skip a step and go from the lowest priority to highest priority, like LP->HK or LK-HP without hitting any mediums. But, it's not like Yun can go from LP to MP without hitting that LK. That's the same reason I sometimes like to call Guy's combo a "Target Combo"; because it requires strict timing (except for the cancel to the last hit which is very lenient) and you can't skip steps. Gen on the other hand, has Chains and can do a "Magic Chain", which lets him skip steps. Likewise with CvS2 Morrigan on the ground and CvS2 Kyosuke in the air -- because they can freely skip steps.
(Usually Low->Medium->High and Punch->Kick). But Chains in most games usually allow you to skip steps.
X-Men:CotA is the earliest game I can think of that had specific rules to what you could normal->normal cancel; like Spiral could cancel ground Kick to ground Punch only. And that meant she could do things like HK->LP or c.MK->HP. Likewise, Storm could only go from Punch to Kick on the ground, but not from Kick to Punch. Which means both characters had "Chains", but only had access to the "Magic Chain" in the air.
In 3S there isn't a "Magic Chain" system, just char-specific Chains. Only reason I sometimes like the term Target Combo at all is because when I hear "targetcombo" I assume that means very strict canceling rules and timing, and you can't skip any steps. I mean, some of the 3S "chains" were stuff like "back+MK -> toward+MK" (Ibuki) and "c.HK -> HK" (Ibuki), which are completely unintuitive in the sense that they use the same "Strength" attack. And in most Chains from other games you could skip a step and go from the lowest priority to highest priority, like LP->HK or LK-HP without hitting any mediums. But, it's not like Yun can go from LP to MP without hitting that LK. That's the same reason I sometimes like to call Guy's combo a "Target Combo"; because it requires strict timing (except for the cancel to the last hit which is very lenient) and you can't skip steps. Gen on the other hand, has Chains and can do a "Magic Chain", which lets him skip steps. Likewise with CvS2 Morrigan on the ground and CvS2 Kyosuke in the air -- because they can freely skip steps.
Looks like Jolly Ranchers & Baskin's Sherbet.
This has gotten crazy off topic. :^) Personally I would just stick with chains, and chain-kara. Target Combos was 3s-lingo for chains, just like Series was for Vs. games.
As far as I understood it, there are only 2 ways to combo 2 normals:
- link = let the previous move finish and start the next move.
- chain = cancel the animation of the previous move with the next move.
This makes rapid-jabs and FF combo and everything just a special case of "chain". The CPS2 chain is a chain, c.Short->j.Short (NKI will correct me if it's Jab) in ST is a chain, Target Combos are chains, etc.
Officially COTA called it the Magic Series, and the definition was on a per-character basis - each character had a specific Magic Series rule on the ground, and a (possibly different) rule in the air. The possibilites were P-K, K-P, W-M-H. W-M/H (one only), or all 6 which was effectively P-K plus W-M-H. (Akuma also had K-P W-M-H when crouching.) I'd actually wondered if they just implemented all-6 as both rules combined.
Guilty Gear actually has very specific per-character rules for chains, like they actually lay down which normals every normal can cancel into. Some go back, some forward, some self-chain, etc. But they're all chains.
Mike Z
As far as I understood it, there are only 2 ways to combo 2 normals:
- link = let the previous move finish and start the next move.
- chain = cancel the animation of the previous move with the next move.
This makes rapid-jabs and FF combo and everything just a special case of "chain". The CPS2 chain is a chain, c.Short->j.Short (NKI will correct me if it's Jab) in ST is a chain, Target Combos are chains, etc.
Officially COTA called it the Magic Series, and the definition was on a per-character basis - each character had a specific Magic Series rule on the ground, and a (possibly different) rule in the air. The possibilites were P-K, K-P, W-M-H. W-M/H (one only), or all 6 which was effectively P-K plus W-M-H. (Akuma also had K-P W-M-H when crouching.) I'd actually wondered if they just implemented all-6 as both rules combined.
Guilty Gear actually has very specific per-character rules for chains, like they actually lay down which normals every normal can cancel into. Some go back, some forward, some self-chain, etc. But they're all chains.
Mike Z
Hmmm.. I don't recall Guilty Gear being that specific. The priority (AFAIK) was simply punch->kick->slash->highS with command normals being a higher priority than slash but not cancelable to anything but a special/super. But, you could skip a step and go directly from; punch to hardslash, or punch to slash, or kick to hardslash, via skipping a step with pretty much anyone. Jam is the only special exception that I can think of.
Well, anyway my point was simply that you could define chains in 3 different ways, because there are 3 different rule-sets/kinds of chains (rules with skips, rules with no skips, and very specific). They aren't really different enough to merit 3 different 'words' though because most people are fine with just "chain", and I don't think it's confused too many people either.
I'm cool with Chain and Chain-Cancel/Kara-Chain
Well, anyway my point was simply that you could define chains in 3 different ways, because there are 3 different rule-sets/kinds of chains (rules with skips, rules with no skips, and very specific). They aren't really different enough to merit 3 different 'words' though because most people are fine with just "chain", and I don't think it's confused too many people either.
I'm cool with Chain and Chain-Cancel/Kara-Chain
Looks like Jolly Ranchers & Baskin's Sherbet.