Fighting Game Tool-Assisted Speedruns

[Genas5]

Of course not,that´s why tasvideos community talk about to show as many tricks and combos as possible. The goal is entertainment.
I am with maj most of the tasers(fighting games tasers) are just casual players, it´s impossible to see a tas using all the things
you want,since exploring the game is not that easy most of the time it comes to have lots of possibilities, it´s just hard to choose what things will be the best to include. Fighting games tasing needs real experts into the game,but that´s a problem too, there is no one with a full amount of knowledge, always there will be someone who will know something that others not.
As for example sfa2 has the juggle bug,this one allows pretty cool combos, most of them showed before by zerokoubou,but the problem is how to set it up fighting with the cpu which is unpredictable and the help of the 2p is needed.
I think tasing fighting games is really hard, probably even for maj would be hard tasing sf2, he has enough knowledge to do it but the problem persists, what things could he include in the tas? what char would be the best to use?
It´s hard, the best tas for a fighting game i have saw is the error1´s sfa2 tas(pretty cool), the worst for me are sdr tases with the exception of his umk3 tas.
That´s my humble oppinion,lol.

[Maj]

I guess what I'm saying is he doesn't do enough enemy manipulation. Rather then just react to whatever attack the enemy is going to do he could make the opponent do whatever he wants.

Ah ok, i agree with you there. Especially during those bits where Akuma's hanging out full screen away for two or three seconds waiting to uppercut a Blanka ball. I still like the counters but he definitely could have set up far more interesting opponent attacks to counter. Too bad A3/MvC1 are the only games that give you meter at the beginning of the round, cuz i'd love to see random normal moves interrupting supers, especially if they lead to a combo.

well basically I just don't believe that the term "speedrun" really applies to these videos i the first place.

Yeah, i don't have a problem with the concept itself but tool-assisted fighting game runs have wandered into a divergent zone where the name "speedrun" is no longer suitable. Maybe we should call them "tool-assisted playthroughs" instead?

An actual fighting game speedrun would require an insane amount of work and the end result would be kinda boring to watch. Especially for a stacked game like SFA3, you'd have to go through almost the entire cast trying to find the character who could do the most damage. And you'd probably end up with a lot of broken combos to reset damage scaling and to get more counterhits. It might actually be interesting from a technical standpoint but it wouldn't be very stylish.

[onReload]

An actual fighting game speedrun would require an insane amount of work and the end result would be kinda boring to watch. Especially for a stacked game like SFA3, you'd have to go through almost the entire cast trying to find the character who could do the most damage. And you'd probably end up with a lot of broken combos to reset damage scaling and to get more counterhits. It might actually be interesting from a technical standpoint but it wouldn't be very stylish.

TASvideos.org defines TAS as "Tool-Assisted Superplay", since a lot of the movies aren't all about getting the credits to roll in the shortest time possible.

[error1]

As for example sfa2 has the juggle bug,this one allows pretty cool combos, most of them showed before by zerokoubou,but the problem is how to set it up fighting with the cpu which is unpredictable and the help of the 2p is needed.

I knew about the juggle bug but I decided it wasn't worth doing. The setup would be boring and no one would be able to tell unless they knew the game really well, with all the crazy judging already going on

[Maj]

Okay, i hate to talk shit about something that someone clearly put a load of time into ...

Arcade X-Men vs Street Fighter (Europe) in 11:38.38 by DavidPaz (aka SDR)

... but this is just plain bad. He uses the same 2P challenge gimmick that we saw throughout his SNES UMK3 run, except this time the versus matches make even less sense. The idea has so much potential for entertainment that seeing it utterly wasted here is simply painful. Even though he spent a lot of time making this, it's obvious that he was still rushing it. Almost none of the situational hijinks are impressive, or surprising, or innovative. In fact i'm having trouble finding anything that we'd even consider advanced.

In well over ten minutes of gameplay, i caught a grand total of two borderline interesting things: Ryu making the second hit of j.MP whiff then linking into j.LK at 3:11 and Wolverine dashing under Bison's Scissor Kick at 9:34. That's it. No joke.

Easily one of the ugliest fighting game videos i've ever seen.

(Man i hope he never sees this post, haha.)

[onReload]

Yes, I'm not sure why he keeps getting accepted at TASvideos...I guess it's 'cause they don't know fighting games very well or want to fill up their new arcade category.

[error1]

Thanks, they just started accepting arcade submissions so mine was the first arcade game submitted.

So sdr has had 3 of his street fighter submissions rejected recently but he just submitted a xsf that looks likely to be accepted http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLP1GGy69EQ
I have a few problems with it but overall it's a big improvement

They rejected plenty of his stuff, I think they accepted it partly because it's more interesting then his previous runs and because there not super knowledgeable about the game. Xsf is probably the street fighter game I've played the least or I would make a better version. Going into 2 player here makes more sense here then in mk3 I think as it lets him show of more characters. So if you wanted to obsolete his video what characters would be ideal? Keep in one vs match so you can show off CYODS?

[Maj]

To be honest i don't think CYODS is that important. If you can get it to work against the computer, that's be great. All you gotta do is wait till the CPU character jumps and then whiff a double super under them, then hope for a hit and a throw. There's gotta be at least one AI opponent in the game who'll do that for you. If not then it's not a big enough reason to interrupt flow.

As far as character selection, it'll take some thought but i figure you need at least one character who can airdash simply for meterbuilding reasons. Dunno if you want to go with Magneto, but he'd make a popular choice. Storm is also in the game but for some reason she has as many haters as Magneto has fans.

[onReload]

Storm is also in the game but for some reason she has as many haters as Magneto has fans.

Make sure audio is on...that's the reason.

[onReload]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuXBKv3RvXM

So, I think maybe he's getting better, there are some fun bits like at 1:17 where he has Gouki lie down to avoid Dan's Shinkuu Gadouken. There are also many decidedly uncreative decisions, like using a lot of teleporting away from the downed opponent and then waiting for a counterhit, instead of trying an interesting setup with a meaty or crossup. Gouki/Akuma is a combo machine and yet the combo counter rarely exceeds 3 without the use of meter.

There's also the return of "Here Comes a New Challenger!!", where he fights Ryu, and still it's not super interesting. It's also the second time he gets the CPU to eat an SGS after a short combo, which really isn't very cool when you can do it yourself by hand any time.

Also a decent amount of combos that start as...not combos; like two light hits strung together that the CPU eats, but very well could have blocked. It's not a super interesting abuse of the A.I.; much like getting them to eat an SGS.

A few fun moments but eh :

When is anybody from sh/f besides Error gonna get in this?

[Maj]

Not me, it's too much work. Choreographing matches is fun though. Well, either that or agonizing, depending on the day.

Check it out, this guy's run got a lot better: Super Street Fighter 2 X - Gouki TAS 2 by leandroff5sfz3

Way more entertainment value and way less dead space this time around. Though he still hasn't tried jump-canceling light attacks like i told him to. Maybe my suggestion got lost in translation, or maybe he's trying to discover everything by himself? Either way, i look forward to the day he does figure it out and makes a speedrun doing nothing but that one trick. Then i look forward to the speedrun after that, where he chills out and finds a good balance.

[NKI]

That ST Gouki TAS was actually really entertaining. I'll give a nigga some props.

I think in XSF, you could probably make a good speed run with any character. The game is diverse and open-ended enough to allow for all kinds of crazy stuff.

But if I were doing the TAS myself, I would probably avoid Magneto. For one thing, he's really played out, but more than that, he can't do much damage besides Tempest. I think I would run out of creative, non-repetitive ways to kill the opponent within a reasonable amount of time.

[onReload]

That ST Gouki TAS was actually really entertaining. I'll give a nigga some props.

I think in XSF, you could probably make a good speed run with any character. The game is diverse and open-ended enough to allow for all kinds of crazy stuff.

But if I were doing the TAS myself, I would probably avoid Magneto. For one thing, he's really played out, but more than that, he can't do much damage besides Tempest. I think I would run out of creative, non-repetitive ways to kill the opponent within a reasonable amount of time.

The Shang Tsung TAS lover in me would say Rogue for Power Drain, and how awesome it is in that game, but everything else about Rogue isn't so...great.

[Xenozip.]

Yeah, morphs and feints are great. I still think feint moves have the most potential for entertaining TAS vids.

After the Samurai Shodown Basara video I don't think I could ever really have an interest in making/watching a fighting game TAS unless it had a feint move or a Shang Tsung move.

The problem with Garou is that feints are more useful in combos rather than as actual literal feints. Though there could be some potential there if they were used differently. Like specifically used to trick the audience.

And I don't know of a way to make a TAS for Melty Blood, SF4, or SS5sp.

[onReload]

Yeah, morphs and feints are great. I still think feint moves have the most potential for entertaining TAS vids.

After the Samurai Shodown Basara video I don't think I could ever really have an interest in making/watching a fighting game TAS unless it had a feint move or a Shang Tsung move.

The problem with Garou is that feints are more useful in combos rather than as actual literal feints. Though there could be some potential there if they were used differently. Like specifically used to trick the audience.

And I don't know of a way to make a TAS for Melty Blood, SF4, or SS5sp.

^ Out of the 3 there, SS5Special is the only one on MAMEPlus...but I never found out if that works with FrameMAME.

[error1]

yah ssVspecial works with fbaRR, the emu tasvideos uses.

[Xenozip.]

I'll have to look into that then. SS5sp Basara has like twice as many shadow feint moves as he does in SS4.

[Genas5]

Though he still hasn't tried jump-canceling light attacks like i told him to.

He already used jump cancelling maj, i have only watched Cammy and Dee Jay, both of them have jump cancelling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxkPeSSgElM

Not sure why he didnt use it in his Gouki TAS, also SDR is the one uploading these.

[Maj]

What's wrong with the sound? It's crazy how i can't even tell what moves Cammy's doing half the time because the sound is so crucial. (Well, it's also because youtube is blurry and choppy as hell, but the sound definitely plays a factor.)

Btw i was totally right about him pimping out the jump cancels all over the place, haha.

Did you know him already?

[Genas5]

What's wrong with the sound? It's crazy how i can't even tell what moves Cammy's doing half the time because the sound is so crucial. (Well, it's also because youtube is blurry and choppy as hell, but the sound definitely plays a factor.)

Btw i was totally right about him pimping out the jump cancels all over the place, haha.

Did you know him already?

No, i dont. I found the video by accident when watching some sfa3 combos. I think the audio is the same with all his tases, not sure why. I just watched the Gief one, it was really entertaining, the only thing he missed was the standing 720 that would be cool to watch in a TAS.

[onReload]

What's wrong with the sound? It's crazy how i can't even tell what moves Cammy's doing half the time because the sound is so crucial. (Well, it's also because youtube is blurry and choppy as hell, but the sound definitely plays a factor.)

Btw i was totally right about him pimping out the jump cancels all over the place, haha.

Did you know him already?

No, i dont. I found the video by accident when watching some sfa3 combos. I think the audio is the same with all his tases, not sure why. I just watched the Gief one, it was really entertaining, the only thing he missed was the standing 720 that would be cool to watch in a TAS.

I'd like to say, "I'll hold out until the sound is accurate," but I dunno if they care.

[Maj]

I hope it doesn't sound like i'm hating outright. Of course there are flaws here and there, but overall i'm absolutely glad these things exist and i'm rooting for 'em to succeed. I'm not sure why these guys are rushing because i think it'd be better if they took their time and focused on one character. But they seem to be learning very quickly so i'm sure we'll soon start seeing material that's genuinely new.

[Xenozip.]

TAS runs are more entertaining when they are really wacky, IMO. Stuff like walk-up DP is just kind of boring to me. It was a lot more fun watching him land hooligan combinations and axle spin knuckles at odd times. Though I don't think he landed razor edge slicer at all.

[error1]

A really cool tas compilation video. Very similar to a combo video really.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBSE2QkHMeU

[Maj]

Damn good idea. I kinda vaguely remember seeing something like this before but hella can't remember what/where.

Hahaha i cracked up when he zoomed in on "Man" mini-Mario dying. Good job getting fighting games included in this thing. If it wasn't for you, they'd either be left out entirely or be repesented by Mortal Kombat glitches.

What's weird is that i thought the best clips were the Sonic ones (which isn't surprising) and the Spider-Man clip. That's probably not a great game in its own right, but it does bring up the question of what are the best TASing games of all time? I doubt anything in current gen or even PS2/Xbox gen would make the list.

[error1]

yah the grappling hook mechanic always makes for an entertaining tas.
Well modern physics engines have a lot of potential for tas craziness so I would put half-life 2 or portal near the top of your list.
Also weird glitches can make any game entertaining, there where a lot of glitches in the nes era but modern pc games make the first release very buggy and just patch it.

[error1]

street fighter alpha 2 snes tas test tauntfest, my first experience tasing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6esKyAKhXM

I had forgotten about this until posting in the vs tas topic.
As a side note, I chose auto mode because of the pimptacular color it came with not knowing what it did at the time.
It makes it so you take chip damage from all moves, so I couldn't block at all
It makes you automatically block when a move comes close giving a frame or so less time to dodge
and it limits you to one slowly building stock so it takes me all round to get the super taunt ready.
I'm still on the fence about whether the color is worth the setback.

[Xenozip.]

I agree, I don't think any particular genre is better for TAS than others, it just matters how the game is made and what you can do with it. More specifically, showcasing things that aren't humanly possible and showcasing glitches and whatnot.

I would have said RPG's are bad for TAS except that's not always true either. Obviously really slow games with long boring unskippable cutscenes and dialog sequences aren't fit for TAS, but not every RPG is like that. And even in those situations you can at least record the segments where you are in control and there is interesting things to do and just edit the video to showcase that stuff. I have seen some interesting/entertaining RPG TAS', it's just that they aren't common because most RPG's are stupid.

That said, I'm kind of interested in the history of TAS. I imagine many games throughout gaming history have always been speed-run'd but I wonder if the first tool-assistance run was technically Quake 1 or not. Or perhaps Doom 2? I don't even know when emulators were made that were capable of TAS. Though that also begs the question of when program pads were used for such a thing because that might predate D2/Q1 as well.

[Maj]

Normally i'm not a big fan of Dan's silly shenanigans but that video was really entertaining. Although, yeah, i don't think i could handle watching another full round of that.

Btw you gotta pick charge characters to get combo mileage out of Auto-Mode. Walk up Flash Kick super!

[error1]

That said, I'm kind of interested in the history of TAS.

History of tas kind of depends on what you call a tas. Doom was the first real game to be speed run. Demo files for games like doom, or quake don't record input but possession. The phrase Tools-Assisted Speedruns was actually invented to refer to doom runs made with a modified engine. You can still find them here in the depths of the Internets
http://www.doomworld.com/sda/doom_sda.htm

What we would call tasing now really started with Morimoto's smb3 tas
http://tasvideos.org/SMB3TASHistory.html