SSF2T: HDR combos

[desk]

Just a quick link, since I posted this on SRK already without thinking.

http://www.vsfighting.com/play.php?vid=359

Basically you can link stuff (quite easily) after kens new hurricane kick and his fierce dragon punch juggles and knocks down on the first hit. Because of these things you can do some quite ridiculous stuff. Some of the combo's bare more than a passing resemblance to rainbow edition which is a bit worrying. We've already heard that ken's strong dp is being changed but maybe these 2 things need addressing too.

Some of the combos, most notably the 11 hit -cr. short [fireball hits], cr. strong xx hk, super- and the last one, are only possible with low damage settings because they would dizzy of KO halfway through. Again the last time that was of any concern to me was when getting combo's for rainbow edition. A new challenge I faced when trying to overcome the 'dizzy half way through' problem was dizzing the opponent first, but having them land in exactly the right spot in order to do the following combo. You can see this happen in the cr. jab, st. jab xx [strong dp x 3] set up and a few others.

The most common set up in the vid comes from the massive range of ken's new hk. Since I did those combo's on my own, I just had to throw a jab fireball and (with the dummy jumping back) catch up with it by doing 2 hk's. Then from there, you can do lots of things including the -sweep xx hk- combo because the fireball keeps ryu from being knocked over.

The ryu stuff is a bit weak but I felt I should have a few clips for him in there. His corner game is very, very strong now because of his fake fireball.

oh yeah and the first combo was supposed to demonstrate that if you throw a fireball at ken you can get killed. The combo I used isn't difficult at all.



if possible don't post this direct link anywhere. I'm working closely with a website and I'm linking to the version on their page at the moment.

enjoy

[Maj]

Wow dude, you work fast. Those Hurricane Kick to HP DP combos were one of the first things i tried too, but i couldn't get it to work in the first few attempts and it was a hassle with Ryu dying all the time so i gave up. It's funny that Ken's HK Hurricane Kick is now fast enough to constitute a projectile chasing setup. Comboing two fierce uppercuts is the craziest thing i've ever seen! And i love how you ended that clip with the fancykick glitch.

Any chance you'd have time to give this a try?

[desk]

man, why'd you have to post that? I know I'm going to spend hours trying to do it, lol.

thanks dude, I've been celebrating getting a new pc by doing absolutely nothing but editing for the past week, lol. I got all (but one) of those clips in the first 2 days the beta was out. I just put the damage down and I'd figured out those links quite quickly. They were technically there in ST anyway though, you see the super get linked in every combo video. Your right, that new hurricane kick is so good for combo makers, you over take a jab fb after 2 of them, then you can just be silly, lol.

[Maj]

Right, but that HK to DP combo seems so much closer to practical now that Ken's HK Hurricane Kick is way more consistent. Well, about as practical as a situational one-frame link can get, haha.

In fact there are so many instances where opponents jump backwards and land on fireballs. That's a pretty good opportunity for Ken to throw a slow fireball then get after it using HK Hurricane Kick. If nothing else, he can get tons of meter by doing a block string after confirming that the opponent has blocked the fireball.

Btw, congrats on the new computer. Soon there's gonna be a ton of promising next gen (current gen?) fighting games to choose from. Here's hoping that SF4 or STHD come out on top.

[desk]

updated first post.

yeah I'm loving having a pc again, really missed being able to edit and stuff, lol. I actually had it donated to me by neoempire and in return I'm helping them out with vids and stuff. Oh yeah and I'm finally able to start taking part in the challenges again! yay! I did just try the STHD one but quickly realised the one element that prevents it being straight forward, lol.

[Goryus]

Great stuff, Desk! If you come up with anything else like this, be sure to post it.

[Dark_Chaotix]

Nice vid. Great work desk as per usual. It would of been nice to have this in your ken vs gief vids.

So can someone explain to me how this is making it "balanced" and better for tourney play? I just cant get my head around the fact that damage is so high and even more worst combos and possible. Like i know that some combos are do able in the original but i do believe that are at least hard to execute but this is a different story. I just cant get over it really for i was looking forward to this.....

[ShinjiGohan]

man we have to show sirlin this so he can try and fix it....

[Maj]

Full Game - Super Street Fighter II Turbo ... 53% complete

Wahoo nooch!!

(I don't care if my Xbox 360 is a day behind PS3 owners, i still consider myself to be on the very edge of frontier of the future.)

[Maj]

Full Game - Super Street Fighter II Turbo ... 97% complete

I just had a Kit-Kat Caramel bar, two Reeses king-size cups, and a can of Sunkist - all of which i got from driving to 7-Eleven in the pouring rain while this game downloaded. I'm gonna be awake for a couple hours at least!

[desk]

lol, I'm jealous dude, I had planned an all night session this evening with constant HDR and many snacks but I had to put it on hold Played a little today with a non sf playing friend though, can't wait to get my own copy! He totally loved the game incidentally, which was really encouraging, hope the game sells really well.

Oh yeah and I don't normally do this as I generally consider myself to be fairly modest, lol. But I was half expecting to get my name in those credits considering the stuff sirlin and myself went over at evo. I guess you can't have everything though

[Maj]

From my personal experiences with certain people at the top (including Sirlin for sure), unwillingness to share credit is a painfully common problem. It sucks that you got left out of the STHD credits but in all fairness there were a LOT of names listed, so we can't call them stingy this time. There wasn't any blank space whatsoever on the "Special Thanks" page. If it's any consolation, i got left out too.

Eh, can't win 'em all. On to the fun part ...

ST:HDR Achievements thread on SRK
- tips and tricks for gaining the Xbox360 achievements with as little effort as possible

Easy Guile Combos thread on SRK
- general practical combo discussion thread for HDR

The first thing i noticed is that Guile's new FK super input (charge D, DF, F, UF+K) makes it very easy to combo into that super. In fact i figured out a better, more consistent method for renda-kara-canceling in the process. Everyone knows that Guile's c.LK is not cancelable into specials/supers and that the way to combo it into a super is to chain it into whiff s.LK and then kara-cancel that into super. Here's the traditional method:

charge DB, c.LK, c.LK, DF, DB, neutral LK, U+HK

Charge timing is incredibly lenient because those low shorts will buy you a lot of time. But anyone who's tried it will tell you that it's too hard to avoid accidentally getting Guile's F/B+LK knee or canceling the c.LK into UB+LK jump. Fortunately there's a solution. Instead of incorporating the whiff s.LK into the FK super input, complete the FK super input first:

charge D, c.LK, c.LK, DF, DB, UB, neutral LK, MK, HK

Immediately after you do the second c.LK, perform the entire FK super motion and then return the stick/pad to neutral. Wait until the c.LK finishes connecting so that you can chain into s.LK and then immediately tap MK then HK (piano method). If you're having trouble getting the FK super to come out, you're either pressing s.LK too soon before the c.LK becomes chainable or you're pressing s.LK before you return the stick to neutral.

With the new HDR shortcut, it's even easier to take advantage of this method since the FK super command is a simple uni-directional motion now:

charge D, c.LK, c.LK, DF, F, UF, neutral LK, MK, HK

Plus the FK super always knocks down now, which makes it way less prone to becoming blockable halfway through. I'm not exaggerating when i call it a practical 60-70% damage combo.

[Maj]

Another thing i've noticed is that backwards facing attacks happen a lot in HDR. I'm not sure what they changed, but i had Guile land crossup j.LK against crouching Cammy and then do a backwards attack when he landed. I've never even seen that work against Cammy before, much less off a jumping light attack. I'm also getting backwards attacks off Sagat's j.MK crossup against Honda, but nothing seems to connect except Tiger Knee. Don't take my word for that though. It's definitely possible that i forgot to try one or that something works against a different character.

The weirdest instance of all, was when my Ken blocked DeeJay's or T.Hawk's or someone's crossup, i forget. When i recovered from blockstun, i did a normal move and it went the wrong way. The opponent had already landed on the other side like a year ago.

Oh yeah, and CPU Chun Li hit me with air Spinning Bird Kick and it connected five times (juggled four times). Kind of bullshit.

edit: Nevermind, false alarm. Guess the Guile and Sagat stuff mentioned above worked in original ST as well. Nobody bothered including it in any videos because it was completely useless, probably.

[Maj]

Can't wait for Xbox360 to get emulated so i can kill CPU Akuma in less than 15 seconds without taking a hit, with a seven-hit combo ending in a super, after dizzying him with a throw. 100G Combo!!

[fullmetalross]

My friend did The thawk wrong way super thing in HD like on accident. LOL.

Edit: also guile is like the ugliest character in HD remix. I thought akuma was. But guile sort of looks like the robot crane thing from Alien if you put a guile mask on it!

[desk]

Maj, yeah I hear you and I'm trying not to be bitter, lol. I just have to assume tokido only played the game at evo too and I'd be amazed if he gave half as much feedback as I did. Tokido is a better name than desk though so I don't blame him for that... wait I do.

It's weird but when I try that guile hit confirm combo in st I find it comes out more consistently when I only hit short once (down for the whiff short and up for the super). I knew you could renda the new motion but I wasn't sure how practical it was. Have you tried, cr. jab x n (untill the next will whiff) then renda into roundhouse FK? for fun in training mode you can do hella on a crouching gief but it's practical in matches too. Very cvs2-esque.

[desk]

holy shit! If you don't have meter you can land crossup j. short, cr. short x 3 renda cancel into roundhouse upkicks for a guaranteed combo. Possibly more useful than the cr. jabs I mentioned because, obviously short hits low.

That technique for doing the motion early and then hitting the buttons works ridiculously well, thank you kindly dude. I could never get those combo's 100% consistent before but they're coming out all of the time now. Works equally well when comboing into regular FK too.

Had a mess around this morning and I'm amazed at how many new (or more practical) combo's and tactics are actually coming up.

[Xenozip.]

Edit: also guile is like the ugliest character in HD remix. I thought akuma was. But guile sort of looks like the robot crane thing from Alien if you put a guile mask on it!

lol lol lol

[Maj]

If you don't have meter you can land crossup j. short, cr. short x 3 renda cancel into roundhouse upkicks for a guaranteed combo.

Yeah, jchensor got the PS3 version the day before and he called me up to tell me how ridiculously buff that combo is now. He said you can literally do it without charge because the c.LK x3 gives you enough time to build charge from scratch. So Guile now has a triple option off a blocked corner Sonic Boom: F+HK overhead, walk up c.LK x3 xx HK Flash Kick or walk up throw (or walk up c.LK then throw).

Had a mess around this morning and I'm amazed at how many new (or more practical) combo's and tactics are actually coming up.

Hm, now that you mention it, it is kinda weird that all these new tricks are being discovered, huh? Half of this stuff probably works in classic ST, but nobody every thought of trying it cuz we were all so confident in our comprehensive mastery of the game.

[Xenozip.]

If the only thing different per-functionality is the aesthetics then maybe it all comes down to how you look at it.

[Maj]

A small handful of non-cosmetic changes is all it takes to get everyone to re-examine everything from the ground up. Anyone who has played any game for a long time invariably amasses a long list of inaccurate information - ideas tested less than rigorously, viable options neglected during testing, things taken for granted, and so on. That's why everyone who tries making a combo video for any game for the first time can always find something new, no matter how old or worn out the game has become.

[desk]

Hm, now that you mention it, it is kinda weird that all these new tricks are being discovered, huh? Half of this stuff probably works in classic ST, but nobody every thought of trying it cuz we were all so confident in our comprehensive mastery of the game.

There's definitely some truth in that.

I have to thank you again for that cancelling trick dude. It works with other characters too and knowing it has no doubt made me better. Not since cigar bob told me the easy way of doing ken's short, short super have I had such a breakthrough, lol. *double thumbs up*

[Maj]

Looks like we have our first (post-release) HDR combo video:

Remix Gief Combos and Tricks by Vodka Stuart

It's a good video, especially considering that the game has been out for a grand total of three days. But it's incredibly repetitive. Seriously, this is the first time i've ever been glad about u2b's ten minute limit.

Cool format for an early video though. I'd be down to watch more of these with different characters showing new variations of combos and tricks.

[Maj]

By the way, Capcom posted the official Final Changelist for HD Remix but i'm sure they forgot (or accidentally changed) a couple of missing differences.

We’ll keep the design reasoning for another day, but hopefully this post will answer some of your questions. I know it might raise more, but these are only the specific changes that were made to the game. Some of them create other behavior, but I’ll stick to the main changes that were made and I’ll let you guys figure out the rest when you finally get your hands on it.


Ryu

New move: fake fireball. qcf+short.


Ken

Strong dragon punch is invulnerable on the way up, exactly like Old Ken's, and also always knocks down. It's now a 1-hit move, not 2-hit.
Fierce dp has bigger arc, always knocks down, juggles against jump-ins, but no additional invulnerability.
Short helicopter has shorter duration
Medium helicopter kick goes slightly farther
Roundhouse helicopter kick goes farther and faster.
Roundhouse helicopter kick does less dizzy
Air roundhouse helicopter goes slightly farther
"Crazy kicks" have simplified joystick motions. New motions: 1) qcf+short, 2) qcf+forward, 3) qcf+roundhouse.
Damage lowered on first hit of knee bash hold.
Range of knee bash hold reduced by a small amount.
Super can now be used as a reversal.


Guile

Roundhouse flash kick now travels forward rather than straight up.
Super has easier motion: charge db, d, df, f, uf+ kick. (Old motion still works.)
Super does slightly less damage.
Uspide down kick is an overhead
Upside down kick slowed down slightly
Upside down kick can be performed at any range, not just close range, by holding towards+roundhouse.
Upside down kick is more vulnerable, allowing Sagat's low tiger shots and other moves to hit it.


Honda

Jump short has higher priority, can hit sweeps.
Floating fierce move (jump straight up + fierce) can be steered farther left/right.
Hundred hands easier to execute
Strong and fierce versions of hundred hands have lower priority and all versions do a little less damage
Ochio throw now bounces off the other way, preventing Honda from repeating it in the corner
Ochio throw now deals the same dizzy points as other throws rather than twice as much.
Jab torpedo can destroy fireballs.
Jab torpedo travels shorter distance
Super travels slower before first hit, but travels faster after first hit.
Super now knocks down and juggles.


Blanka

Horizontal ball has safer recovery.
Horizontal ball with jab and strong have same sound effect and same spinning speed as fierce version.
Horizontal ball with jab and strong travel slightly shorter distance so whiffed roll into bite is a little more effective.
Diagonal ball has faster startup and safer recovery.
Hop move has new command: hold stick left or right then jab+short OR strong+forward OR fierce+rh. (Old motion of kkk still works).
Hop back builds much less super meter.
Forward version of hop has slightly more foot-invulnerability at startup.
Electricity easier to execute (mash punches)
Super move has faster startup, faster recovery, and always knocks down if it hits.


Zangief

Green hand command changed to qcf+p
Green hand has slightly faster recovery.
SPD command easier: hcb,f+p OR hcf,b+p. (Original 360 command still works)
Super command easier, hcb,hcb,f+p OR hcf,hcf+p.
Running Grab (and double suplex) command is now hcb+k OR hcf+k.
Running Grab runs faster.
Kick lariat can now be done with jab+short as well as original KKK command.
Punch lariat can now be done with strong+forward or fierce+roundhouse as well as original PPP command.
Kick lariat has invulnerable feet during Zangief's first rotation, but vulnerable feet after that.
Kick lariat has a different sound effect on startup than punch lariat.
Punch lariat's initial hitframe now extends down to the floor so it can hit Dhalsim's low fierce or sometimes Guile's low forward. As before, this hitbox is only active for 6 frames out of the entire lariat.
Hop move can only be done with towards + fierce. No longer possible with back+fierce, back+strong, or towards+strong.
Hop travels farther forward, slightly higher, and has slightly better recovery.
Jumping (forward/away) strong has hitbox that reaches slightly farther forward.
Low fierce has slightly higher hit box, mainly to hit Vega's off-the-wall attacks.


Chun Li

Removed df+medium kick move.
df+roundhouse (the "neckbreaker") no longer crosses up, removing the loop of repeated knockdowns.
Lighting legs easier to execute (mash kicks)
Lighting legs do less damage and have a little worse priority in Chun Li's stomach area.
Aerial spinning bird kick can be done with charge down, up+kick, so that you can do it after a headstomp.
Aerial spinning bird kick travels more straight now, then falls in an arc at the end
Ground spinning bird kick has a new parabolic arc. It can also air-juggle and deals a fair amount of dizzy.
Super does slightly less damage.


Dhalsim

Teleport command requires only 2 punch or 2 kick buttons rather than 3.
Teleport recovery is not longer, but has more vulnerable frames at the end.
Yoga flame changed to qcb+p so it doesn't overlap fireball command.
Upward yoga flame changed to qcb+k to match other yoga flame.
Upward yoga flame now travels way up the screen with roundhouse version.
Super changed to hcb,hcb+p to match yoga flame command.
Super has more forgiving timing window.
Super is now more vulnerable around Dhalsim's head and throwable from behind.
Super can now be used as a reversal.
Noogie hold has shorter range.
Ducking ranged punches no longer cleanly go under Guile's Sonic Booms


Balrog

Turn punch and headbutt award less super meter.
Small and medium headbutts travel slightly farther and are less safe.
Throw range decreased.
First hit of throw does less damage.
Turn Punch can be performed by holding 2 punches or 2 kicks, rather than all 3
Super does a little less damage


Vega

Defensive backflip command changed to jab+short for small version; strong+forward OR fierce+roundhouse for double flip version (old commands of kkk and ppp still work)
Offensive backflip can no longer be charged straight back (must be charged down/back).
Off-the-wall attack no longer knocks down
Off-the-wall attack has additional recovery, to prevent combos after hitting with it
New Wall Dive Fake: After going off the wall (charge down, then up+k), you can press kick again to drop without attacking.


Sagat

Super has more range, and always knocks down if it hits.
Fireball recovery is better than New Sagat but worse than Old Sagat
Some normal moves are from Old Sagat
Stand strong can be cancelled into special moves, second hit of stand forward and short cannot
Tiger knee always knocks down and juggles (but NOT into super)
Tiger knee damage reduced because of new juggle property


Bison

Devil's reverse (charge down, up+punch) has 1 frame of invulnerability at startup
Stand jab has better priority, can stop honda's torpedo and blanka's roll
New move: df+roundhouse is a fake slide.
Jump straight up + strong now juggles the same as jump toward/away + strong


Cammy

Hooligan throw motion changed to qcf+p
Spinning Backfist motion changed to qcb+p
Spinning Backfist is invulnerable to fireballs during startup (all versions)
Spinning Backfist's hitbox on 2nd hit is bigger so that it doesn't fail to get 2nd hit if the 1st hit connects
Cannon drill has better recovery
Cannon Spike is usually not safe on block anymore.


Fei Long

Flying Kick motion changed to qcf+k
Short version of flying kicks have additional frames of partial invulnerability, allowing them to go through fireballs at the start
Flying kicks have lower priority on first hit, allowing them to be countered air-to-air a little more easily.
Flying kicks have 5 additional frames of recovery
Medium and roundhouse flame kicks always knock down and can juggle
Short flame kick is no longer safe on block from point-blank range.
Rekka Punches travel a little farther
Rekka punch motion is a little more forgiving, so it's not as hard to get all 3 in the series.
Super travels farther
Fei Long's head is vulnerable during 4th and 5th hits of the super (and can't go through fireballs during that, but still can during first 3 hits).
The super causes a different angle of knockdown so that comboing after it is difficult/impossible.
Super meter gains slightly reduced on flame kick and flying kicks.


Dee Jay

Machine Gun Punch, much easier to get all the hits
Machine Gun Punch destroys fireballs
Machine Gun Punch does less dizzy and less damage than before.
Medium and Roundhouse Dread Kicks, 2nd hit sped up so that it almost always hits if the first hit connects.
Medium and Roundhouse Dread Kicks have a few frames of foot-invulnerability at startup
Medium and Roundhouse Dread Kicks have reduced damage because of improved ability to combo


T.Hawk

Hawk dive command changed to jab+short OR strong+forward OR fierce+roundhouse while in air (old command ppp still works)
Hawk dive's bounce changed so it ends with T.Hawk close to enemy and safe on block or hit.
Hawk dive does not knock down
Special throw command easier: hcb,f+p OR hcf,b+p, and you can actually start in down/back or down/forward (Original 360 command also still works.)
Special throw now has a whiff animation if you miss.
Super command easier: hcb,hcb,f+p OR hcf,hcf+p.
Several of T.Hawk's normal moves are from Old T.Hawk, such as stand roundhouse and low roundhouse.
Fierce dragon punch now always knocks down and juggles
Fixed a bug where a stray hitbox on low strong could be hit from very far away.


Akuma

Super meter added and new super move: Raging Demon. Command is jab, jab, towards, short, fierce.
Super travels slower and farther than the secret version of Akuma
Super has additional start up frames.
Super is not able to grab an opponent out of jump start-up.
Air fireball has new downward angle and causes Akuma to hang in the air slightly when thrown.
Air fireball can now be done lower to the ground, allowing instant air fireball using "tiger knee" motion.
Akuma takes more damage than other characters.
Akuma can now be dizzied.
Teleport command requires only 2 punch or 2 kick rather than 3.
Blue fireballs have more startup and recovery. Now same startup as Ryu's fireball and only slightly shorter recovery than Ryu's.
Fierce blue fireball only has the huge knockback effect from very close range.
Red fireballs have more startup.
Helicopter kick has much less invulnerability.
Akuma's leg is no longer invulnerable during his ducking kicks.

[fullmetalross]

speaking of changes, i never got an answer from anyone on SRK but does Ryu having fake fireball prevent him from doing short, short, super?

[Maj]

Nah, for whatever reason it's not an issue, cuz the renda-kara command never seems to trigger Ryu's fake FB. But it wouldn't matter anyway because that's never gonna be a practical technique. Even if you perform it perfectly, it doesn't combo half the time.

On the other hand, if we're only talking about whether it can be done for fun, there's always some trick you can use to avoid conflicting special move commands. Either hold the button of the command you want to bypass or perform the super motion slowly so that the special move motion expires, depending on the situation.

By the way, that so-called "different angle of knockdown" alteration on Fei Long's super must be outdated info because the knockdown angle doesn't appear to be any different. However, it is now completely impossible to juggle after Fei Long's five-hit super. The reason is that they disabled the volleyball effect on the last hit, the same way as it's disabled on the last hit of Ryu's super FB.

Oh yeah, and Fei's MK/HK flame kicks have a juggle potential of three. Near the corner you can do MK flame kick followed by MK/HK flame kick for four hits total or you can do a three-hit anti-air chicken wing followed by one hit from MK/HK flame kick.

[desk]

rah! I just landed forward flame kick x 4! (1-hit each). I wouldn't have bothered if you didn't just point that out... So, if there was a set-up, would a super juggle on the end of that combo?

I wish i could be bothered to capture footage from my 360

EDIT: it also appears that his 'magic' flame kick has been removed. So now even the last few frames of non-flamed kick still cause them to be set on fire.

DOUBLE EDIT: answered my own question. You can get 1 hit from a super on the end of 4 flame kick hits.

[Maj]

Aw, that sounds like it would look dope! So you're not gonna make a full version sequel to your HDR Beta combovid?

Goryus must be helluva burnt out too, since his game shipped like four days ago. Hm, i wonder who's gonna make the next really good HDR video. Also i wonder if anyone we've never heard of will surprise us with a good HDR video. Fingers crossed.

[desk]

You're not looking to put one together yourself? I would like to but I just don't have the motivation at the moment. Plus, it would be mostly new set-ups, not necessarily combos... also, it would be 95% akuma, lol. He has soooo much cool stuff in this game,

I have to say congrats to goryus. I'm really enjoying HDR. The fact that I can just jump into training mode now, instead of having to play theory fighting is awesome. Really happy the game is finally out.

[desk]

argh, just tried to capture a random clip so I wouldn't forget it and it looks like I couldn't make a vid even if I wanted to. The game doesn't support the same output as the beta did (no idea why). Meaning that, with my current set-up, I can't record anything in colour... So I'm out, lol.

Disappointing