Challenge 05: I Got Nothin'

[Maj]

I'd like to put together a challenge for X-Men: Children of the Atom cuz that game was a big deal back in the day. I've been a Marvel reader longer than i've even been an Street Fighter player, so seeing those first screenshots in GameFan magazine was pure hype.

Problem is, COTA is fucking broken. I can't think of anything. It seems like the hardest thing to do in that game is ending a combo.

Help please.

[Toxy]

What do you mean by ending a combo? ending a combo with a special more or something that looks cool or something? im confused.

[Xenozip.]

What do you mean by ending a combo? ending a combo with a special more or something that looks cool or something? im confused.

For many characters, combos can (more or less) go on forever unless you intentionally end it with something that has no options after it hits. In fact, there's are some characters with 1-button infinites against certain weight-type opponents, and other characters with 2-button infinites, etc.

Sentinel and Colossus are possibly the most restricted in their combos, but even they have 100% combos against the majority of the cast. Storm has almost no restrictions at all, if you endlessly empty cancels her normals.

So by "ending a combo" I'm pretty sure he means finding a cool finisher to a series of attacks and not doing anything after that attack.

The only challenges I could think of would either be absolutely insanely situational and obscure, or very highly restricted by a lot of things. In either case it's difficult to create a challenge model that could be used and still leave room to find interesting things.

[Maj]

Yeah, it seems like there's nothing you can do in COTA that truly ends a combo. There's always some way to keep the combo going.

I'm gonna throw an idea out there and you guys tell me if it's good or bad. Do two throws in one combo. You have to start with something other than a throw. You have to prevent the screen from scrolling vertically. Each clip is worth one point and each person can submit two clips, but you have to use a different character for each of your clips. You can use characters that other people have used, but of course your combo has to be structurally different.

How's that sound?

[Xenozip.]

-snip-

Too easy: Spiral.

I can do that in like four different ways.

Also too easy: Psylocke

I can do that in at least two different ways.

Way too easy: Storm.

Any way you want it.

[Maj]

Aw really? Bummer. What's Psylocke's solution, for example?

[Xenozip.]

Hmm I'm going to throw out some random ideas too:

A combo that is only valid if the opponent hits you at some point during the combo. Meaning they don't just hit you, but it would be otherwise impossible without a interrupting hit.

A combo that is only valid with a 1F link. Meaning, the window of execution is 1F.

Aw really? Bummer. What's Psylocke's solution, for example?

I'll make you some clips.

[Xenozip.]

Hohoho, I was actually going to try and make something somewhat creative tonight, but before I made any progress I found these on my hard drive:

xmcotaj-0.avi

These are obviously tool assisted. I must have been experimenting with framestep at the time that I recorded these.

Anyhow, none of these technically fulfill the requirement because the screen scrolls vertically in each of them (and the Psylocke combo doesn't contain any throws actually). However, I'm using this thread as an excuse to post them since I highly doubt they would have ever seen the light of day otherwise.

I'll still create some clips to fulfill the requirements without screen scrolling, but not tonight.

[Xenozip.]

xmcotaj-1.avi

Ok this is extremely simple and rudimentary but it gets the job done under the requirements. See the previous post for ways I could add more hits to it (lulz).

Anyhow I spoke too soon on Psylocke and Storm; both of their airthrows don't move the screen vertically when it's uncomboed but it does move it vertically by a few pixels during a basic combo. So either I'd need a specific setup to do it without scrolling or it may not even be possible, AFAIK. Damn pixels (shakes fist).

I'm still pretty certain it's possible for Spiral. Though in the case of Spiral it requires an OTG which I consider a bit cheating since OTG's are kind of a gray area in my book. Although there's still probably a least a couple different ways she could do it (but they all require OTGs). Same goes for Iceman, he would need to OTG post-airthrow.

It's probably possible for other cast members in various ways. But I think this game deserves some more dynamic challenges. It really didn't take my long to do the Omega Red one above and I doubt it'd take me long to do an OTG one for Spiral and probably other characters.

That said I'll probably still try to find some tomorrow just to make sure I'm not blowing smoke here (I'm thinking Omega Red's coil is cheating anyway).

[Mike Z]

If OTG grabs count, then it's pretty easy innit? Also, there are a lot of throws that scroll the screen vertically anyway.
I can think of challenges, but only ones I already know the answer to...
- Create the biggest combo you can think of that doesn't show up on the combometer at all.
- Win a round without hitting the opponent during the round.
- Dizzy someone while they're on the floor - this might be an interesting requirement for having in your final challenge combo.
- Use other random OTG properties of COTA like sliding etc...
- Do a combo possible in the PC version (i.e. don't use any chains ever).
- Create an Akuma combo with only backwards magic-series chains.
- Start with a setup only possible by using Spiral's Switch (so, a midair ground move or something similar).
- Find a redizzy.
- Combo as many hits as you can without your point character or any limb or extension actually touching the opponent.
- Come up with a valid challenge for COTA. :^)

None of those are much help, but yeah, especially with framestep COTA is too free.
Mike Z

[Maj]

(I'm thinking Omega Red's coil is cheating anyway).

Carbonadium Coil is a blockable special move, so it doesn't count. But i see your point. I wanted to rule out standard air combo setups and easy-mode launcher throws like Psylocke's MP throw. Btw, if you use a heavy opponent like Colossus, the screen rarely moves. In fact i don't think Psylocke can do MP throw into air throw against Colossus.

Also, your COTA video is awesome. If you're not gonna release any of those combos, you should contribute it to one of those mega-collaboration projects that get posted on CV and CX all the time. I dig the Omega Red combo most, cuz he's running all the time. If you make a 5-minute video of Colossus and Omega Red combos where they are running (in Russian) like that the whole time, i will pay $15 for the DVD. I can almost guarantee that omni and jchensor would buy it too.

How do throw combos work in COTA, anyway? You can't link low jab into throw against a standing opponent, can you? Is there a way to combo into regular (non-air) throws?

[Mike Z]

I seem to remember you could combo into ground throws off bounces, like in XSF.

Mike Z

[Xenozip.]

-snip-

I think the personal goal for those clips was, at the time, to cross up the opponent in interesting ways so that I could juggle them from corner to corner and back again. Hence the wind tricks with Storm, shadow shenanigans with Psylocke, and the funky crossup with ORed. But those were recorded years ago so it was probably an uninspired experimentation that I quickly abandoned once I was satisfied that I understood the potential involved.

However, I really don't know anything about the game on any great level of detail. I don't play it, I don't spend time experimenting with it, I haven't analyzed it at all, I don't watch videos of it, I don't discuss it with anyone who does play it, etc. Which goes to show; anyone can pick up a emulation tool and create a set of simple things like that. But it's clear even to me that I'm missing quite a lot due to my lack of knowledge and experience with the game. The combos in those clips may appear creative at a glance, but to me they are rather narrow minded and not fleshed out at all.

I seem to remember you could combo into ground throws off bounces, like in XSF.

Mike Z

orz

You're probably correct.

[Maj]

Fuck it, let's go for something simple this time. If you guys come up with a better one, we'll do another COTA challenge later.

Choose a character and create a combo which includes every one of their special moves and super moves. Each person is allowed to submit one clip. Once a character has been used successfully to complete this challenge, that character may not be used by other players.

Characters with five or six unique special moves are worth one point. Characters with seven or more unique special moves are worth two points. Different strengths/versions of a special move won't be counted separately. If you'd like to choose a character with four unique special moves to earn one point or a character with six unique special moves to earn two points, you can make up the difference by including two regular ground throws in the combo.

Everything is allowed, as long as the combo counter keeps going.

[Xenozip.]

- Choose a character and create a combo which includes every one of their special moves and super moves.
- Different strengths/versions of a special move won't be counted separately.

Need clarification on this; how many unique special moves do you count for Spiral?

[Toxy]

Everything is allowed, as long as the combo counter keeps going.

Dont think that's a good idea lol, there is combo meter glitch in that game, e.g player 2 iceman keeps on spamming his Iceball throw, and player 1 can keep hitting him all round without anything comboing and the combo meter keeps going up as long as player 2 keeps throwing the iceball.

[Toxy]

Sure can combo standing throws in Cota, just the same way as in MSH and XvSF, I've got an akuma combo that i made for BTU1 which was forgetten to put in, but i will use it in BTU2 that uses this.. so i'lll show you for an example.


http://www.youshare.com/hosting.php?fil ... owcota.avi

[Maj]

Need clarification on this; how many unique special moves do you count for Spiral?

Fuck. Yeah ... about that ... i was planning on playing it cool and basically taking your word for it.

Um, since you guys know way more than i do, i'll just let you police yourselves on this one.

Sure can combo standing throws in Cota, just the same way as in MSH and XvSF, I've got an akuma combo that i made for BTU1 which was forgetten to put in, but i will use it in BTU2 that uses this..

Nice combo. COTA's combo counter registers all of the hits until the opponent dies. Does that include the killing hit or no?

Also i guess we need a "please don't glitch out the combo counter" rule. Please don't glitch out the combo counter.

[Toxy]

COTA's combo counter registers all of the hits until the opponent dies. Does that include the killing hit or no?

No idea man, i really know nothing about COTA at all, the Akuma combo is the only COTA combo i have ever done... to me COTA is unplayable and it feels really ancient, i can still enjoy any other capcom fighter title except for this, i guess what makes it feel so outdated is that it's pretty much way different than the rest of the marvel games engines, since MSH was made, it made the COTA engine look like shit compared to it imo.
I don't know if anyone else agrees with me that this is capcom's fighter that aged the worse, sorry for going off topic but i was just interested to see how other feel about this game?

[Mike Z]

Damn, I was gonna do Spiral. There's ways to combo every sword toss and Switch...so IMO all of 'em should count as different...

Mike Z

[Xenozip.]

I asked for clarification more so due to her powerups. There's also ways to combo each of her powerups but since her Cut Mirror (invisibility) doesn't exactly "do" anything I wondered if it counted as separate from her power upgrade or speed booster.

I mostly consider her powerups as a singular move with different attack strengths that have different results, since they are inputted the same way and are done with the kick strength buttons. I would consider the difference between the power increase and the speed boost as significant enough to count them as separate, but the invisibility is basically the same as her damage powerup in terms of what they actually do in a combo once damage scaling is capped.

But this is why I wanted clarification; I was under the impression that in order for the combo to be valid that every single one of the character's unique special moves had to be used. In which case; either Spiral needs to combo only one power-up dance or all three.

Alas, Mike, you should do Spiral anyway. If I do one for Spiral I'll put it elsewhere and not submit it for challenge credit. I assume we'll have very different and contrasting methodologies anyhow.

[Maj]

After consulting with jchensor, we've decided that they should count as three seperate moves. With most special moves it doesn't matter, but some of them have diverse enough variants that it would be cool to see all three in a combo. For example with Cyclops, it would be cool to see a combo that includes lowblast, midblast, upblast, and airblast. Oddly enough, it wouldn't be as cool seeing an Iceman combo containing lowbeam, midbeam, upbeam, and airbeam. And i definitely don't care about seeing all three speeds of Silver Samurai's Shuriken. Actually, in Iceman's case the air versions of his Icebeams are way too similar to the ground versions to consider them distinct, so you could mix and match as you like with him.

Anyway i'll ask jchensor to help me with judging this one. If these rules end up making it absurdly difficult for a specific character, you can either change characters or present an argument for us to make an exception.

[Mike Z]

Xeno - I'm still learning macros and whatnot, so go for it, it'll take me weeks at this rate.

Also, interesting tidbit: While everyone can empty-chain, Spiral can empty-chain any sword throwing punch to any other higher-strength button, but only in superjump. By doing this you can do Jab->Strong->Fierce and throw 3 swords in 3 frames, but doing it uses up your chain. So even though hers is K->P so she should be able to do Jab->Short->Jab and get 2 swords, the Jab to Short uses up your chain ability and you have to wait for the next move to complete.
Go figure, it's COTA.

Mike Z

[fullmetalross]

Man someone should do silver samurai cause he has tons of moves,
speaking of which do I have to combo into all of them or can I start with ice activated?

I'll try silver if I get my computer fixed but it might be awhile cause I need to learn the game system as well

[Maj]

If you can activate it mid-combo, that would be cooler but if that's impossible then guess you could also start with it on. Maybe you can do something ghetto like throw a slow FB, then activate, then dash in and continue the combo. That'd be more than sufficient for me.