How could we determine whether CCC2 ST has input lag?

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:07 pm

Wow, what a copout. The game was called Capcom CLASSICS Collection 2. Almost everyone who gives a shit about those games is old enough to own older consoles and older versions of ST. Why would anyone be interested in paying for the same game over again unless they believed what Sirlin said/implied about it being arcade perfect? I don't see why he's shocked by the reaction the game is getting.

The most annoying thing for me is all the people who keep saying that this isn't an issue and that we should just get over it. That's fucking bullshit. It is an issue. It's an issue every time Evo comes around and we have to decide what version of ST to use. It's always been an issue. Until we have an arcade-perfect version of ST (or until we give up on ST and switch to STHD), it will continue to be an issue indefinitely.

All those fools who come around calling it irrelevant are trolling, pure and simple. They shift the discussion away from CCC2's quality to some dumb discussion that nobody wants to be having. That's also what makes the whole thing seem more heated than it would ever have gotten otherwise.

When it comes to things like this, there's just way too much pride on SRK to get anything accomplished.

laugh · Post by **laugh** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:05 pm

I've been giving Sirlin the benefit of the doubt on where the blame lies in the piece of unplayable plastic that is CCC2 ST.... until the latest post he made in the CCC2 thread. I thought it was pretty offensive to the players.

When NKI posts the vid and shows everyone that the lag is basically 4 frames most of the time (which is RIDICULOUSLY absurd) and random and inconsistent at the same time, is he going to post saying that he should have noticed the lag while playing and should have corrected it, although I don't think he'll ever admit that he screwed up judging from his posts regarding CCC2? He may not be the programmer, but he took the role of the play tester and he failed at it by not noticing a very obvious problem that would have been spotted easily by numerous other players. Doesn't that make him responsible for letting input lag go unfixed? I just don't think he can take the stance and attitude he's been taking on this.

NKI · Post by **NKI** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:37 am

Update on the vid:

I wanted to do some more capturing with the Dreamcast version before I concluded my test, and I found a rather important detail. It looks like PSX->DC converters introduce about 1 frame of input lag. I had heard some Marvel player (I wanna say it was fanatiq?) complaining that converters had lag, and I didn't believe it at the time, but that does seem to be true.

So now I have a little bit of additional footage captured, and I started editing this weekend.

Over the next few days, I probably won't be able to work on the vid, being that I have a friend staying with me from out of town, but I'll definitely get back on it ASAP.

Magnetro · Post by **Magnetro** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:22 pm

yeah, fanatiq was the one that said that.

desk · Post by **desk** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:16 pm

cool, glad to hear the vid is coming along. So will that converter thing be an issue if people wanted to use the DC version for big tournaments? or is it standard for everyone to have DC sticks in the US?

Xenozip. · Post by **Xenozip.** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:23 pm

The only people who I know locally that own DC sticks are the hardcore/og Marvel players. Everyone else owns PS2 sticks.

ShinjiGohan · Post by **ShinjiGohan** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:58 am

Question. Were there any differences between the Saturn and PSX ports of Street Fighter Collection? Would that possibly a viable tournament port of ST?

NKI · Post by **NKI** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:01 pm

Most people would agree that the PS1 version and Saturn version are inferior to the DC version.

http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php ... e_Versions

ShinjiGohan · Post by **ShinjiGohan** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:34 am

Well generally Saturn > PSX in terms of the 2D ports. So if for some reason that the DC couldn't be used, I would suspect that the Saturn would be the next canidate (SP?) and then PSX. but I just wanted to make sure.

Xenozip. · Post by **Xenozip.** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:23 am

Candidate.

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:33 am

I don't think Evo would support the Saturn version over the Dreamcast version. The main reason they agreed to the PSX version is because the PS2's backwards compatibility allowed them to avoid hunting for obsolete consoles. Saturn is bottom tier in that category.

ShinjiGohan · Post by **ShinjiGohan** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:42 am

Thanks xeno for the spell check lol.

Maj, yeah I realized that the long lost saturn would definitely pose a problem to find, much less the game as well... and maybe that 4MB ram booster that they had. But I was thinking in terms of an ideal world lol. Where if those were available that it might be a better choice than the PSX version.

NKI · Post by **NKI** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:42 pm

I'm not sure the Saturn version actually is better than the PS1 version. I never tested it much, but I know CPS1 chains are back, just like in the PS1 version, so I suspect the PS1 version and Saturn version may share the same problems.

Also, ST didn't support the 4-meg RAM cart. Only a select few games actually used that thing, like XSF and MSF.

desk · Post by **desk** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:52 pm

The PSX version actually shares a few things with the cps1 games. I don't know how much they effect general gameplay (haven't heard feedback from the times it has been used in comps) but it's not proper ST.

Mike Z · Post by **Mike Z** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:37 am

Why hasn't Evo gone and gotten Capcom's permission to use emulated arcade ST, anyway? Especially now with Seth there...

Mike Z

NKI · Post by **NKI** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:18 am

"Evolution is a console tournament."

I'm sure that's what Wizard's reply would be...'cause that's what he always says...

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:17 pm

While i'm sure Evo staff would have no problem finding enough Saturns over the next eight months, using such an outdated version makes it that much harder for the community to keep up. Not only is the console system rare, but so is the actual game. Most people would end up practicing on another version, then show up to Evo with the same old excuses.

It's unfortunate that we still don't have a proper version of ST to use, but it's not going to matter anymore anyway. Evo will probably end up using STHD for the next two years. If it ends up being good, then true ST is gonna be relegated to a side tournament on CigarBoB's cabinet or something. If it ends up being terrible, then we'll eventually find some way to switch back to arcade/emulated ST.

To be honest, i'm also a bit surprised that nobody has tried asking Capcom for permission to run an emulated version of ST. But then again, recent tests seem to show that even emulators have input lag. Also, finding arcade boards isn't as big a problem as it may seem. There are a LOT of OG players out there who'd be willing to loan their boards to Evo for these tournaments, especially when the alternative is playing on a poorly emulated console version.

One way or another, this problem is going to get solved.

Xenozip. · Post by **Xenozip.** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:04 am

Actually just a little FYI that I didn't bother mentioning on SRK:

The emulation-based input lag only applies to CPS2 with sound enabled. The input lag is nonexistent with sound off or in SNK games (like samurai shodown). I highly suspect the issue is q-sound related.

Only certain emulators seem to have this problem with CPS, such as Mame, Mame++, FinalBurnAlpha, Kawaks. The input delay does not exist in the original FinalBurn (pre-alpha) or in Nebula.

NKI · Post by **NKI** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:46 am

Finally finished...

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=144797

desk · Post by **desk** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:33 am

sweet, the audio visual syncing was a nice touch. I guess we can officially close the book on CCC2 now?

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:53 am

Wow, great vid. I'd like to see someone try to argue against that. To be honest i was totally shocked by a lot of the comments made in the first thread, especially the things nohoho said. Any idea why he suddenly started slinging insults?

NKI · Post by **NKI** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:26 am

I dunno, nohoho is a total enigma to me. On the one hand he's awesome, 'cause he provides us with fantastic updates about the ST scene in Japan, but on the other hand he's not so awesome, 'cause he gets all fired up and shits on people for no apparent reason.

I actually met him at Evo East this year, and he was pretty cool. <shrug>

Xenozip. · Post by **Xenozip.** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:44 am

Hmmm. Very nice work.

ShinjiGohan · Post by **ShinjiGohan** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:00 pm

only other thing that I saw was that during the 2 screens on the video at once you couldn't see the led light.

Xenozip. · Post by **Xenozip.** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:42 pm

The LED is extraneous for the 2-screen test. Since the signal was split, the input was simultaneous, and the actions should happen simultaneously on both screens (but they don't).

It's like dropping two marbles from a box, one heavier than the other. You don't need to see the box or the marbles leaving the box to tell which is heavier, you just need to see which hits the ground first.

NKI · Post by **NKI** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:41 am

Correct - I intentionally didn't use the LED for the Y-splitter test, because there was no need for it. I was using a single button to control both versions at the same time.

ShinjiGohan · Post by **ShinjiGohan** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:19 am

Also I noticed when the you had the side by side screens going on. After the arcade throw started to occur and you were going through each frame until the CCC2 had its animation, the arcade one ceased to animate for four frames? Is that normal? I dunno, it just seemed odd.

fullmetalross · Post by **fullmetalross** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:18 am

Xenozip. wrote:The LED is extraneous for the 2-screen test. Since the signal was split, the input was simultaneous, and the actions should happen simultaneously on both screens (but they don't).

It's like dropping two marbles from a box, one heavier than the other. You don't need to see the box or the marbles leaving the box to tell which is heavier, you just need to see which hits the ground first.

except weight has nothing to do with falling speed at least for the purpose of determining falling speed in a scientific environment... haha, sorry I couldn't resist. I'm gonna go be science sassy somewhere else...

Xenozip. · Post by **Xenozip.** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:26 am

NKI · Post by **NKI** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:00 pm

ShinjiGohan wrote:Also I noticed when the you had the side by side screens going on. After the arcade throw started to occur and you were going through each frame until the CCC2 had its animation, the arcade one ceased to animate for four frames? Is that normal? I dunno, it just seemed odd.

Yes, that's normal. Dhalsim holds the opponent there for a while before tossing them.

Keep in mind that the video was captured at 60 FPS, so four frames is only 1/15th of a second...not a long time at all.