Got any Questions about SF3:NG, 2I, 3S, or 3SOE?

[ZenFire]

3S - Progressive Hit Frame System: What the hell is it?

If you Google it (along with "Street Fighter") you get the following text (or slight variations) a BUNCH of times:

Progressive Hit Frame System - This programming technique enables a more realistic "Hit Frame" or "Collision Box" detection. The area in which a player makes contact with their opponent is precisely calculated and based on a single frame of animation.

What in the crap does that even mean?
Then you get someone's 'explanation' of it later on in the results:

This new combat element enables more realistic collision boxes and hit frames. Basically, each contact point has been streamlined to one frame of animation.

Still very unclear. So, what? did they take one frame decide "this is the frame we're basing our collisions on" and they draw a bunch of boxes along a realistic path of the fist/foot and then play these in time? The word progressive kind of makes me think it's something along those lines. Could it be any more vague. Someone suggested the Eternal Challenge mook has more details. I have the Japanese version which I can't read...

In what world does "streamline [something] into a single frame of animation" make sense for hitboxes? Are we even still talking about hitboxes? How is this better than the way it's done in every other game?

Someone suggested to me that this means they use a pixel by pixel comparison of sprites to determine a collision. I really can't swallow that. It requires more storage (you need a colored version of every sprite to identify the hitting parts of the sprite), it's slower than just checking if a couple of rectangles overlap AND there's just too strong a gut feeling that it's just WRONG. I've seen Chun's B+HP hit rediculously. I've seen parts of sprites overlap that didn't cause an impact which definitely should have it was pixel perfect.

Can anyone help answer my burning questions?

[fullmetalross]

I think MikeZ knows more about this that what Im about to say butttt

The way I heard it is they started that way.... then went back in an edited stuff so that its not just pixel perfect overlaps, mostly that means widening the hitboxes on attacks and such. But thats why breathing animations and such actually effect whether you can hit shit or not.

[Ultima]

From what I heard, 3S doesn't use "hit boxes" as much as it uses "hit masks", i.e. instead of the old rectangular boxes used to determine what part of a move can hit and what part is vulnerable, they use masks that more closely match the shape of the sprite. It was supposed to allow for more realistic hit detection.

I'm not sure if it's 100% true, since there are definitely instances where moves don't hit exactly as a mask would suggest. But the hit detection in 3S IS very different to its predecessors. Moves trade waaaaaaay more often in 3S than in NG/2I, and probably any other fighter I've encountered. I could definitely attribute this to some sort of hit mask acting in place of traditional hit box.

I also heard there are no moves with invincible frames in 3S aside from supers and the recovery of Makoto's headbutt. Hence another reason why shit trades so much.

[Xenozip.]

I really don't think hitboxes match the sprites so much anymore. I mean, just glancing at some of Chun and Elena wonky ass attacks suggest that even if they did use some sort of masking they must have edited it heavily.

Some moves do contain invulnerability for "no reason" (actually, Makoto's headbutt was probably intended to be invulnerable and uncancelable for the entirety of the move, but they changed it to be cancelable) but it's not very common, it's mostly on EX and supers that have full actual invulnerability. There are some things that have upperbody invulnerability properties too, mostly DPs.

The weird thing is invulnerability-breakers. For example some moves have completely invulnerable startup, like Chun-Li EX SBK, pretty much nothing can hit it -- EXCEPT Ken SA.3. For some bizarre reason Shippu just ignores the invulnerability properties. Though Shippu doesn't hit Makoto out of her headbutt, which probably suggests Makoto during that state has no hittable box at all, just not an invulnerability thread. It's not just SBK, Shippu can hit an opponent Ken out of HP and EX DP's as well.

Example video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udwrJBiVJas

[phoenix]

Maybe this is a well-known thing, but I never knew, feel free to delete if it is.

I was working on a combo with makoto, trying to link st.MP into st.HP but even with the meatiest timing, it would not work. This made no sense to me.
Makotos st.MP is startup: 8 active: 10 recovery: 4, +7 on hit. If you hit opponent on first possible frame, there's still another 13 frames of recovery, and then it's still +7, so in total that should be 20 frames of hitstun.

So if you would hit the opponent on the last possible frame, there would only be 4 frames of recovery left 20-4 = +16 frame advantage. Or so was my reasoning.

But it turns out that this is not the case, If you hit Makoto's st.MP on the last possible active frame, it is +9 on hit. Before last active frame it's +8 on hit, every other active frame it is +7.

How did this happen?
My best guess is that this 'active' period is actually a collection of hitboxes
1st hitbox: 1st active frame: hitstun: 20
2nd hitbox: 2nd active frame: hitstun: 19
3rd hitbox: 3rd active frame: hitstun: 18
4th hitbox: 4th active frame: hitstun: 17
5th hitbox: 5th active frame: hitstun: 16
6th hitbox: 6th active frame: hitstun: 15
7th hitbox: 7th active frame: hitstun: 14
8th hitbox: 8-10th active frame: hitstun: 13

Had a look at some other moves, also ryu's close MP seems to work somewhat like this.
It's +2 on first and 2nd active frame, and +3 on the last active frame.

[Maj]

It's not a documented thing, but i've run into that problem in the past too; although i can't remember any specific examples anymore. I never looked too deep into it, so i'm curious to see what you find.

[error1]

keep in mind that some moves like vipers lightning knuckle or Blanka ball can't be meaty

[Maj]

Um, that's not the issue here.

[onReload]

any finds here? i ought to get better at reading this stuff, but from what i understand, this..this is weird. i'm guessing it has to do with that "super realistic awesome hitboxes" that 3s advertised, where they changed more frequently throughout the move? i doubt each frame has a unique hitbox (that's a lot of memory), though, but several is indeed a possibility.

[phoenix]

any finds here? i ought to get better at reading this stuff, but from what i understand, this..this is weird. i'm guessing it has to do with that "super realistic awesome hitboxes" that 3s advertised, where they changed more frequently throughout the move? i doubt each frame has a unique hitbox (that's a lot of memory), though, but several is indeed a possibility.

I haven't looked at it much since then. It's not an 'every frame' thing, but pretty much every active period seems to have multiple hitboxes, but they're often static, so in effect they're no different from single hitboxes. Only thing it influences is how much frame advantage you get from doing a meaty. Most games it is for ever frame that you do a move meatier, you get an extra frame of advantage, in 3s this is not the case. As to why they did this, I can only guess. Maybe they wanted to take the importance of meaty-only combos out of the equation but did want to have moves to have a lot of active frames so meatying would be easy and maybe parrying would be easier too?

[his1nightmare]

Not sure if it's the right title for this thread, but it's the only one I managed to come up with which doesn't contain 20 words.

As some people admitted, some command throws actually grab opponents out of the air, if they were knocked down by an attack before.

Here is an example (Ryukenden's combo video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVUUC0xWxyc#t=148s

This seems also to apply to Necro's throw-super (which also grabs knocked back opponents) and Akuma's Raging Demon.
As for Hugo's and Alex's command throws, either no one ever tried, or no one ever came up with a setup for any special or super.


Hugo has to wait I guess, setting up any of his throws to work this way is either impossible or just terribly complicated, his only normal knocking down on aerial opponents is his s.HP, which has the priority of a thousand shotos and basically doesn't trade with anything.
However, for Alex I finally came up something, to be able to tell everyone, Hyper Bomb does not work as the throws stated above do.

my setup: http://file.qip.ru/video/1wT6rW5b/alex.html

Now I'm kinda confused if it has anything to do with the time passing between the actual hit and the throw, if the 3 command throws stated above have somewhat special properties no one ever defined completely, or if Capcom just created one more bug which is second to none.


If anyone has an answer, a Hugo-setup or just wants to add information or opinion, it would be cool.

best regards

[CPS2]

Another example from KYSG's Yang video...

Akuma's demon tho, I'm not sure if you can juggle into it, but you can combo off HK if you get a certain hitstun animation (it only works on certain characters).

I've been wondering if once the hitbox data is completely done for 3s, if certain characters have "throwable" hitboxes that appear and disappear at certain times, and if we can see them during hitstun then.. PUZZLE UNLOCKED etc. (I know that probably seems really lazy but I've played enough 3S for the time being ) Another thing may be if certain attacks leave the pushbox exposed enough to be throwable, just a guess.

I really have no idea why this works, but my guess is that it's character specific, and requires a certain hitstun animation. I tested out a number of setups when I was playing more 3S, couldn't really pin it down in a way that shows anything new.

[onReload]

Some of it might be character specific, like Gill can be hit by non-throw attacks right as he's about to land (like here, in UD Labs System Direction Combo Video), Hugo/Dudley can be OTG'd by some attacks, and the rules for "throws" in 3rd Strike are kind of loose; you can combo into some via the whole turn-around-type of hitstun - that's what lets Akuma combo the demon from his far HK (like here, in SlimX's first 3s video) - they're turned around which puts characters into a command-grabbable state...usually. Again, throws in this game seem to have a loosely defined set of rules.

Some of this might be easier to test if you use System Direction - technically neither of the ports (PS2/DC) are arcade perfect to begin with, but since it lets you change cancelability and recovery times, it has produced some interesting combo ideas so far; the above video being one of them...haven't tried to see if one can combo into Makoto's Karakusa, I think close HP turns the opponent around in that interesting way - even though her command grab is slow, maybe you can slam opponents with her overhead chop, then grab?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT8m33ZM_Es#t=0m12s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CCeFrlclLk#t=0m10s

both from DCyclops

[his1nightmare]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Another example from KYSG's Yang video...

This I even totally forgot, another command throw-setup I wondered about for years.

Akuma's demon tho, I'm not sure if you can juggle into it, but you can combo off HK if you get a certain hitstun animation (it only works on certain characters).

As linked by onReload, Akuma can actually connect Demon after knocking down with c.s.HK. But without System Direction, you can't cancel the second hit of the kick, only the first one, which knocks down too (though situations are possible, where it forces a backflip).
The most common and easiest way to land this is on Gill's Resurrection:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqgoKvUNH1A#t=265s

both from DCyclops

Just want to add, DCyclops just uploaded a couple of SF3 videos, didn't perform them; they're almost all done by a japanese guy who isn't capable of english and never released anything outside of Japan. I once visited his website and found a CRAPLOAD of awesome 3S exhibitions. (But nothing was related to command throws in particular.)

Another thing to add is this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6huDnILri0

Yang command throwing Chun-Li, totally shitting on any kind of hitstun.


I guess the most perfect statement was written down by onReload:

and the rules for "throws" in 3rd Strike are kind of loose

Not only you can throw people at the most illogical moments, throws of all kind also manage to whiff everytime when you least expect it.
Like you just stand in front of an opponent, pressing throw happily, but it whiffs without any kind of reason. And Elena in particular has even some kind of throw-shield, when you press absolutely nothing while you control her, a certain amount of frames of her "doing nothing"-animation lets any throw of any opponent whiff, even Kara-Throws of characters with impossibly wide hitboxes for their throws (Q, Hugo, ...).
Once Gill escaped my throw by... turning around:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HVhebZ6XQk#t=87s

haven't tried to see if one can combo into Makoto's Karakusa, I think close HP turns the opponent around in that interesting way - even though her command grab is slow, maybe you can slam opponents with her overhead chop, then grab?

This I wanted to try too. I shall check it out and post then the result, in case there will be one. Of course you are free to try it yourself, finding probably a better solutation.


best regards

[onReload]

Just want to add, DCyclops just uploaded a couple of SF3 videos, didn't perform them; they're almost all done by a japanese guy who isn't capable of english and never released anything outside of Japan. I once visited his website and found a CRAPLOAD of awesome 3S exhibitions. (But nothing was related to command throws in particular.)

The "japanese guy" -- was it the guy who did that Yang command grab thing? 'cause that would be Keeper, who plays a blue Ken and is credited with the amazing horror that is the Keeper-Jin GEJ Yun combo. I think one comment on that hitstun -> Zenpou Tenshin video suggests that it may be because the throw doesn't seem to care about hitstun from the shadows of Sei-Ei Enbu. if it's not keeper or RX, or that akablo site, i'd love to know who/what the site is!

[his1nightmare]

Well, about the command grab thing, I retried it. Regardless if I just wanted to use it during the hitstun of the shadows or if I wanted to use it during the hitstun caused by shadows which already have disappeared, it absolutely didn't connect (on Ryu). :/

About the website, you are actually absolutely right, it's the "akablo"-page. ( http://akablo.noob.jp/ )

Sorry that I didn't link or specify my source instantly, I just couldn't remember until you wrote down that name. Thanks.

[Maj]

Is this how Alex's Stun Gun Headbutt "juggle" combos work too?

[onReload]

Ooh, that's an interesting question - I wasn't sure about that, I had just figured SGHB was like a kind-of hit-throw (see Ibuki's Taunt/Command Grab, Oro's Command Grab)

...'cause I don't know how possible it is to test if it can hit during hitstun - obviously it can hit during that SPECIAL (aka arbitrary, yes Maj I know you hate this) turned-around histun, but I don't know if there's any setup for Alex to land huge hitstun (with the character facing forward, then have his StunGun go for the grab at the same time. Maybe that's another job for System Direction.

[Maj]

Huh? I don't have a problem with turnaround hit stun (or back-turned throws or whatever it's called). Always thought it was kind of a cool feature.

Speaking of that though, is there any difference between attacks which force the opponent to turn around and simply having the opponent face the opposite direction? Because if Alex simply jumps over some attack and does Power Bomb before they recover, he gets the back-turned version, right?

So does that mean if you make a slow fireball connect from the other side, you can throw them while they reel backwards?

[his1nightmare]

Yes, they're two different states.

Alex's Flash Chop is just kinda special, that you can use command throws after it. A normal throw won't work while the opponent is caught in its hitstun. That some of Alex's attacks work differently when the opponent is facing you with his back is just a feature, basically all attacks are stronger/better if used on an opponent actually looking at you, probably it's kind of an abuse-protection, who knows. Flash Chop just allows you to use these special versions of your specials without having to stun the opponent and jump to a place behind him.
Neither can any throw or command throw connect because the opponent is turning around or turned around. Akuma's hk xx SGS setup is kinda special too, you can't repeat this special scene with any other character or any other combination of attacks/throws.


@ onReload

Sadly no, no SGHB setup exists where the opponent is actually facing you.
There are only 2 ways to actually combo into it, mp/hp Flash Chop xx SGHB and landing it on an airborn opponent with at least "1" juggle point left.

[onReload]

So does that mean if you make a slow fireball connect from the other side, you can throw them while they reel backwards?

Nah, they have to be in that turned-around hitstun, it's a whole different animation - random example using aegis interrupt; in that scenario, it's hard to see, but if you ever hit someone with s.HK or f+HP from Hugo, you'll see that they turn around; some of the time, like for Hugo, it's not for practical combos since they're also pushed like halfway across the screen -it's more for emphasizing the fact that it's a big hit.

with Necro, that property also affects his moves, but he can get his backwards throw (the suplex) using the regular throw (LP+LK) or command throw (HCF+K) if he just happens to be behind the dummy; but they can't be in the turned around state like from his HP Tornado Hook (HCF+HP)...in that case, ONLY his command throw (HCF+K) gets the special throw.

[Maj]

Ah, so jumping over an attack and throwing them before they recover is a completely different phenomenon from throwing after landing a turnaround attack? Makes sense if that's the case.

Btw our friend rKf is working on a new 3S combovid (check out the last post at the bottom). It'll be ready in 3-6 months!

[onReload]

Ah, so jumping over an attack and throwing them before they recover is a completely different phenomenon from throwing after landing a turnaround attack? Makes sense if that's the case.

Yeah, the unique backwards attack (the suplex, choke hold, etc) will come out in either situation, but it's not the same thing.

Btw our friend rKf is working on a new 3S combovid (check out the last post at the bottom). It'll be ready in 3-6 months!

Nice! Didn't know you were posting on his BBS; trying to get him to be more social?

[Pokey86]

so, i've been playing 3rd strike for the first time for an hour today

= Cancelling seems considerably harder in this game, half the time i did Mak's LK -> LP hayate it didn't combo.

= Chaining seems ALOT harder

= Parry is easier than i expected, i did Ryu's Super 3 times in a row first attempts. However i had about 10 attempts against Dudleys & didn't get a single parry.

= My fingers hurt from all the double QCF motions in the hitstun of a short. To think that people hit confirm off of two of these gives me a headache

= I've yet to actually figtht anyone, computer or real

= How in the bloody hell do you do 2 Shippu Jinrai Kyaku's after an EX Hadouken?

---

[Doopliss]

However i had about 10 attempts against Dudleys & didn't get a single parry.

You have to do the first parry before the super freeze. I was stuck on that one for quite some time as well.

How in the bloody hell do you do 2 Shippu Jinrai Kyaku's after an EX Hadouken?

Careful spacing, you should check it out on YT.

[Pokey86]

You have to do the first parry before the super freeze. I was stuck on that one for quite some time as well.

Before!? Is that the same with Chuns as well?

---

Also, why exactly does Akumas far roundhouse combo in to Demon?

This games combo system baffles me.

[Rufus]

Also, why exactly does Akumas far roundhouse combo in to Demon?

This games combo system baffles me.

The Demon is 'special'.

[Doopliss]

You have to do the first parry before the super freeze. I was stuck on that one for quite some time as well.

Before!? Is that the same with Chuns as well?

Yes, which makes the whole thing a lot more impressive.

Also, why exactly does Akumas far roundhouse combo in to Demon?

That turn-around hitstun is apparently grappable, I think some people discussed this very thing here recently.

[Pokey86]

Yes, which makes the whole thing a lot more impressive.

Are you fucking kidding me?

[Doopliss]

Yes, which makes the whole thing a lot more impressive.

Are you fucking kidding me?

Nope. Found out about it today as well.