Got any Questions about WW, CE, HF, SSF2, ST, HSF2, or HDR?

[Maj]

I'm not sure how Tekken or Virtua Fighter define startup. I'll ask noodalls to clarify it for us.

For the sake of clarity, the question is: If a move is listed as having 10 startup, does that mean it connects on the 10th frame or the 11th frame?

In other words, if an attack causes +10 frame advantage, would you need a "10 startup" move or a "9 startup" move to combo afterwards?

Btw Dammit, thanks for asking about this before you publish your guide. I really appreciate it.

[CPS2]

VFDC has some really awesome guides on it, and it looks like they do follow the usual format for frame data, except they call startup "execution."

http://virtuafighter.com/wiki/doku.php? ... properties
http://virtuafighter.com/commands/index ... hara=akira

[noodalls]

If a move gives +10 frame advantage on hit, then a i10 move will connect (assuming it's not Tekken's false frame advantage, i.e. hit stun frames where you can block/duck but do nothing else.)

I think I show this in my frame data video, shown here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npTvDOj1eWc

I believe this is the same as VF.

The other thing I note with SF4 versus Tekken is that in Tekken the input will appear on the screen in training mode on frame zero, and the move will connect on frame 10 (for an i10 move) whereas in SF the input will appear on the screen on about frame 2 (i.e. the move has already started animating when the input appears.) This applies to MvC3 as well.

[Dammit]

OK, then I'll definitely go with the startup = preactive convention. Actually I picked up on the other way from shu, who gives "発生" (preactive+1) in addition to preactive alone in the time charts. (example) It's kind of like the dustup over how to count juggle hits/JP, inclusively or exclusively.

I'll link that VF page and noodall's video when I get around to updating, along with whatever else related resources.

[CPS2]

btw I saw that page the other day Dammit, and was wondering if you were going to post it on combovid or SRK or anything? I kinda just stumbled across it, but I'm sure a lot of people would find it interesting, outside of those who already know about macrolua.

[noodalls]

OK, then I'll definitely go with the startup = preactive convention. Actually I picked up on the other way from shu, who gives "発生" (preactive+1) in addition to preactive alone in the time charts. (example) It's kind of like the dustup over how to count juggle hits/JP, inclusively or exclusively.

I'll link that VF page and noodall's video when I get around to updating, along with whatever else related resources.

Reading that frame data page (which is exceptionally good) makes me think it would help to clarify. In Tekken if a move is i10 (which most of the jabs are) then it goes like this.

On frame 0 the input is accepted. No change in animation of the screen. On frame 1 the character begins to animate. On frame 9 the opponent has the last chance to block (ignore autoguard for a second, or alternatively, the opponent has their last chance to push forward and overcome autoguard, or push down to duck/SS). On F10 the move connects, the hit mark appears and the opponent is too late to do any meaningful inputs. On F11 the opponent starts to reel in hit stun.


This took me ages to finally be sure that it's how the system works in Tekken, but it does seem quite reliable.

[Rufus]

On frame 0 the input is accepted. No change in animation of the screen. On frame 1 the character begins to animate. On frame 9 the opponent has the last chance to block (ignore autoguard for a second, or alternatively, the opponent has their last chance to push forward and overcome autoguard, or push down to duck/SS). On F10 the move connects, the hit mark appears and the opponent is too late to do any meaningful inputs. On F11 the opponent starts to reel in hit stun.

Does Tekken really start the move on the frame after the input? HDR does not:
http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/misc/ ... elay1.html

[noodalls]

I meant in terms of the game system acknowledging the input and displaying it in command history to commencing animation, as opposed to physically having a response on screen within a frame. From digitalfoundry's tests of SoulCal4 I would assume there's about 4-5frames delay. Unfortunately I don't have an elegant solution like yours to test this.

[Dammit]

btw I saw that page the other day Dammit, and was wondering if you were going to post it on combovid or SRK or anything? I kinda just stumbled across it, but I'm sure a lot of people would find it interesting, outside of those who already know about macrolua.

I need to add some links to other frame data resources so it's clear what the page is about, clean up the terminology, and explain the where the rest of the startup comes from in the SFA2 superfreeze. I also want to add a 3D FG example... So it's not ready for prime time attention yet.

[Dammit]

There was a problem with some charge moves not coming out consistently. Maybe it was a console-only issue though. I don't remember the details, but luckily i found an old SRK discussion where Graham and i went over it - although i don't remember having that conversation either. Man, there were some seriously oldschool people posting in that thread back then.

I had another look at this. The input window for that move is shorter, and it goes back to SSF2. In HSF2 they mixed up the input windows for his "Super" and "SuperT" versions, and that's when it was noticed.

Code: Select all

# HSF2 Vega (Claw) _D,U+K execution test

##################################################
# ssf2t, turbo 0 (w/ fskip disabled), ryu stage

# player 1, new claw: normal performance
&4 W10 _D,W70^D._U...._4,W20,^4^U! works
&4 W10 _D,W70^D._U....._4,W20,^4^U! fails

# player 2, old claw: shortened input window
&4 -W10 _D,W70^D._U_4,W20,^4^U! works
&4 -W10 _D,W70^D._U._4,W20,^4^U! fails
&4 -W10 _D,W70^D_U._4,W20,^4^U! works
&4 -W10 _D,W70^D_U.._4,W20,^4^U! fails

# player 2, old claw: negative-edge is normal
&4 -W10 _D_4,W70^D._U....^4,W20,^U! works
&4 -W10 _D_4,W70^D._U.....^4,W20,^U! fails

##################################################
# hsf2, turbo 0, ryu stage

# player 1, ST claw: shortened input window
&4 W10 _D,W70^D._U_4,W20,^4^U! works
&4 W10 _D,W70^D._U._4,W20,^4^U! fails
&4 W10 _D,W70^D_U._4,W20,^4^U! works
&4 W10 _D,W70^D_U.._4,W20,^4^U! fails

# player 1, ST claw: negative-edge is normal
&4 W10 _D_4,W70^D._U....^4,W20,^U! works
&4 W10 _D_4,W70^D._U.....^4,W20,^U! fails

# player 2, SSF2 claw: normal performance
&4 -W10 _D,W70^D._U...._4,W20,^4^U! works
&4 -W10 _D,W70^D._U....._4,W20,^4^U! fails

##################################################
# ssf2, ryu stage

# (same results as ST O.claw)

[Bob_Sagat]

So yeah, I'm more into visuals than what really happens behind the sprites, but I found this and thought it looked kinda funny. I guess the frame where Blanka has his leg completely extended is eaten up by a frameskip, and then the super freeze delays Ken's reaction to being hit?

[Maj]

Sounds about right. I'm sure u2b playing at 30fps or 24fps or whatever doesn't help matters either. Looks kinda cool though.

[Bob_Sagat]

I got a 60 fps version too, guess I should have posted that. BOOM(5 MB)