Random Lazy Questions

[Dammit]

Yep, it's Atomiswave

There's also good progress in makaron and mame.

But the ROM hasn't been dumped.

You may get results with the PS2 version depending on your computer and their definition of Playable.

[Xenozip.]

I'm not too surprised to see it hasn't been dumped.

Oh yeah Makaron, that emulator was able to run Akatsuki Ausf Achse, the Blitzkampf sequel. Hmm, interesting. My computer's pretty crappy though.

Thanks for the info.

[onReload]

Here are some RLQ I've been holding onto:

-Does priority truly exist or is it simply hitbox/frame magic?
-Does Hitstun include Hitstop frames (A.K.A. "Impact Freeze")?

I have a few other basic-as-hell ones that I'll remember later. Thanks.

[CPS2]

-Does Hitstun include Hitstop frames (A.K.A. "Impact Freeze")?

I think it does, you seem to get more frame advantage with trades if they hit at exactly the same time, than if say u get hit with the same attack on your last frame of hitstop. Unless the other character is affected by you getting hit, and hitstop just vanishes for both of you (I don't think this happens, but I guess it's possible in some games?)

I always thought priority was just to do with startup speed and hitboxes...

[Xenozip.]

Here are some RLQ I've been holding onto:

-Does priority truly exist or is it simply hitbox/frame magic?
-Does Hitstun include Hitstop frames (A.K.A. "Impact Freeze")?

I have a few other basic-as-hell ones that I'll remember later. Thanks.

- In pretty much every game ever it is hitbox/frames. In SFA3 there is an actual priority system appended to certain hitboxes, which causes red flashes when those particular moves "out prioritize" another move, rather than the typical pink/blue/white flashes. In BlazBlue there is another priority system in place that causes moves to have invulnerability-types, such as projectile-invulnerable moves can be hit by melee but not projectiles, or high-invulnerable moves can not by hit by overheads regardless of where the hitboxes are. SOMETHING like this is in SF3-3S where Ken's SA.III (shippu jinrai) can hit moves that are supposed to be fully invulnerable, how that works and what moves cause that I have zero idea, it is a mystery.

- Yes.

[Raine]

I think Melty Blood has (or had, I've heard it got removed from MBAA -> MBAACC) a priority system where certain normals would beat 2A regardless of hitboxes. It was supposed to prevent players from just being able to mash 2A out of a blockstring.

[Rufus]

-Does Hitstun include Hitstop frames (A.K.A. "Impact Freeze")?

I think that's a matter of semantics. I tend not to include it since hit freeze is usually symmetric in HDR.

[phoenix]

-Does Hitstun include Hitstop frames (A.K.A. "Impact Freeze")?

Depends on how you look at it. But I'd say 'no'. Thing is, hitstop affects both players. If you would say that the 11 frames of hitstop in KOF2002 are part of the hitstun, you'd have to say that the 11 frames of hitstop are additional 11 active frames in an attack IF it hits.

It is much more elegant to really see it as what it is, and say time just stops for 11 frames and then continues to deal the frames of hitstun. I've never seen it described any different for a game.

[Xenozip.]

I think Melty Blood has (or had, I've heard it got removed from MBAA -> MBAACC) a priority system where certain normals would beat 2A regardless of hitboxes. It was supposed to prevent players from just being able to mash 2A out of a blockstring.

Oh right.

Yeah, B and C level moves gained anti-A-level-armor. For some reason I didn't think of that as "priority" but I guess the end result is actually "priority". But yeah it was removed in some version or other.

[Maj]

I think that's a matter of semantics. I tend not to include it since hit freeze is usually symmetric in HDR.

I agree with this answer. The question probably wasn't specific enough. It comes down to, "Why? What do you want to do?"

At any rate, SF4 hitstun/blockstun numbers don't include hitstop, and that's pretty much the only game guide ever to include separate HS/BS data.

[Maj]

Um, why can two Midlers dash (forward) through each other?

[Xenozip.]

Her collision box extends during her frontstep. Incidentally it also gets pushed back quite a bit when she activates high priestess while standing in a neutral stance.

[Maj]

I'm not sure that term is defined clearly enough to count as an explanation all by itself.

Anyway some more weird stuff. When you activate Midler's stance in vertical jump, she actually gets pushed back when she lands. What's crazy is this happens even if the opponent is nowhere near her. Also Mariah's standing hard attack usually (but not always) passes through Midler at point blank range, but only when Midler's stand is active.

Also Midler's Motor Show super comes out significantly closer to her if switches sides (1P Midler facing left).

[onReload]

You've gotten better with this game, I'd say. Starting to look more like your vs. series screenshots.

Also, on your reply to Xenozip: are you asking why the developers would choose to have her pushbox move the way it does, or that it still shouldn't work? and from both of your posts, it seems as though neutral jump or standing mariah gets her pushbox moved upon activation.

Also, I know I'm nitpicking here: the way Japanese is, it could go either way, but since it's about magnetism pulling in metallic objects, I'm pretty sure Mariah's QCF+A is "Collection." You can also easily call "Bast no Jiryoku" "Bast's Magnetism"; Bast is just her stand's name (some Egyptian god). Also couldn't help but notice that you called Dio's QCB+A "Murdeeer!" when it's really just "Mudaaa!", as "muda" is a japanese word "pointless, etc" and written in kanji throughout the comic and game - it shows up if you get into a Blazing Fists Match as Dio. I didn't want to be a dick at the time, but if not now, when?

[Maj]

Nah i still don't know shit about the game. And i don't know what "collision box" refers to or what "collision box extends" means.

Regarding move names, i'm okay with nitpicking but frankly i don't care. When someone requests a game i don't play, i just find the most official-looking movelist on GameFAQs and use it for everything. In this case, it happens to be this one.

[Xenozip.]

The push box.

It's like a hitbox that prevents two characters from walking through one another. When you walk into a standing character your pushbox pushes the opponent around. You know the effects of this box because of claw's dive pushing characters full screen distances when other-wall diving against airborne opponents.

What do you think happens when a move like Mariah's 5C has her pushbox suddenly teleport two character lengths forward? This is also what technically defines a kara-throw (like in 3s), because if a move modifies the position of the hitbox, and then you cancel that move, you end up where the pushbox is. Hence why Mariah sort of teleports forward when she whiff cancels her 5C, rather than returning to her original position. It defines your actual physical location and prevents two pushboxes from overlapping, the sprites and the hittable boxes and attack boxes have nothing to do with where you actually are, the pushbox is "you".

In SFA3 there are quite a few characters that appear to move dramatically forward during their moves, however this is just sprite and hittable box, not pushbox. This is evident in the fact that they return to their original position if the move is interrupted. But then there's other moves, like R.Mika's standing HP that actually moves her pushbox quite a bit forwards, so if she whiff cancels that move she will be moved to the new pushbox position, which is a char-length or two forwards.

[Maj]

Well, i think we just stumbled into the dark side of hitboxes. I'm starting to miss the way these simple questions would've been answered before we had direct access. Overall i'm sure it's a positive change, but we definitely used to have more imaginative explanations before "don't you know? hitboxes foo!" was considered an acceptable answer. I guess it was inevitable though.

Anyway another question: Why does only 1st Player get a combo counter in JBA? Seems like no matter what i do with 2P, the numbers never show up - only the "Good" / "Nice" / etc. messages afterward.

[onReload]

It has to do with the emulation; I have NO idea why that's something that would be missing. Also, in 3s, have two Chuns do standing Fierce right up against each other. They switch sides...::shrug::

[Maj]

Figures. I always worry about emulator accuracy when it comes to CPS3 games and 3D games. Ah well, at least there weren't any combo counters in my screenshots. Hopefully it hasn't affected them in any other way.

[Xenozip.]

Well, i think we just stumbled into the dark side of hitboxes. I'm starting to miss the way these simple questions would've been answered before we had direct access. Overall i'm sure it's a positive change, but we definitely used to have more imaginative explanations before "don't you know? hitboxes foo!" was considered an acceptable answer. I guess it was inevitable though.

Anyway another question: Why does only 1st Player get a combo counter in JBA? Seems like no matter what i do with 2P, the numbers never show up - only the "Good" / "Nice" / etc. messages afterward.

... I disagree. The presence and knowledge of the pushbox has been around since before anyone could see it. My answer to why that happens would have been the same five years ago, only difference is now I can show you proof in various games too, including ones relevant to your interests. It's not so much "don't you know? hitboxes foo!" and more "let's not patronize him by giving him a long-winded verbose explanation, just say collision box and leave it at that".

If you enjoy unraveling games yourself and dislike when the mystery is revealed to the barebones then maybe it's better to not ask.

If anything I would have thought you'd be excited about turning that information into an article. But w/e.

[Maj]

Her collision box extends during her frontstep.

What new information does this give me, exactly? First of all, why did you say "collision box" and not "pushbox"? If there's an article that needs to be written here, it's a terminology list (and i hate writing those).

Well yeah, of course we always imagined characters having a physical presence on the screen. Something has to prevent them from walking through each other, which gets erased when they become invincible or roll or whatever. If you were trying to not patronize me, a couple of extra words would've helped clarify what you were trying to say so we could move forward discussing the characters instead of regressing backward to system basics.

Anyway the point i was trying to make is: Our old way of phrasing your answer would've been to say that their positions simultaneously move forward enough in one frame to skip through each other (assuming that it's not a temporary invincibility issue). And whoever answered the question probably would've provided another example of dashes where that same thing happens, so we would have something to compare it to. Then we'd try to find the pattern as best we could, to predict another instance. Now we point to hypothetical hitboxes and leave it at that?

I don't have a problem with calling it a hitbox issue if the answer includes the actual hitbox or any of that other stuff you said you could've shown me. But to leave it at "collision box" is basically just saying "look it up!" which is essentially saying "discussion denied." I guess i'm not a big fan of pointing to hitboxes and implying that proof exists without actually providing it. Unless you feel like we'd be better off with everyone keeping quiet in their own corner?

[CPS2]

First of all, why did you say "collision box" and not "pushbox"?

I've heard some people (probably coming from a FPS background) call them clip or clipping boxes. Another vote for "pushbox" though, explains what it is and what it does

[phoenix]

Sooo, why does this happen?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdLR4uqP ... re=related
I had a look at Blanka's hitbox on that move and see no reason why it would whiff on anyone. So unless Rose actually has lower body invincibility during her forward walk, which she doesn't seem to have either I have no clue whit it is happening.

[Maj]

Sooo, why does this happen?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdLR4uqPjII

Okay so we've got Blanka's slide and Rose walking forward (for a bit at 0:20). Can't really tell what's going on though. There's a stray box way behind Rose, but i'm not sure what that represents.

Although it actually does look like the base of Rose's hitbox is simply higher than the top of Blanka's slide hitbox. And Rose's hitbox baseline definitely rises when she's walking forward compared to standing in neutral (0:19-0:20).

[Doopliss]

align the two pictures and you will see that Blankas slide goes under Rose's walking hitbox, like you said.

[error1]

it's pretty obvious when you put them together, rose has invincible shoes

[Dammit]

"Collision" is synonymous with "hit" so calling them collision boxes doesn't get far. We'll probably need a terminology list at some point at least for our usage.

For example this community has a different system and seems to use beatbox/bbox.

[onReload]

Pushbox always seemed natural to me, but "existence box" is probably more accurate, though a mouth/handful...Still, I don't know if I prefer "impact freeze" vs. "hitstop". Maj has a good list already though.

[Maj]

All i'm saying is this wouldn'a happened before hitbox display. Just an observation, nothing more.

(With great rectangles comes great responsibility!)

[Doopliss]

it's pretty obvious when you put them together, rose has invincible shoes

You're aligning the wrong box for rose, it's the thin lined yellow one you should be aligning. They're like, one or two pixels apart.

Btw, fun fact: In Super Smash Bros Brawl, the hitboxes (at least the hurtboxes of the attacks, haven't seen how any of the other boxes look.) are circles, not squares.