Project: Extensive frame data for SSFIV

[Doopliss]

I've noticed lately that the existing frame data for SFIV is fairly limited, and often requires extra calculations in order to give you the data you want. So I've been thinking about creating some extended frame data, that include advantages after various cancels, juggle data, hitstun/advantage data for every hit in multi-hit moves etc. I'll need some help from you guys with a couple of things though:

1: error, what program do you use to datamine for stuff like juggle properties? What kind of info can be easily obtained from it (like hitstun, total frames of a move etc.)?
2: if needed, does someone know any reliable program that allows you to look at 60fps video recordings frame-by-frame?
3: Can you come up with anything mentionable that I've missed in the list below?

Here's the data I plan on including in the frame data:

Move Input (Name seems unnecessary)
Block Type (also if a move is airhit only, hard-coded crouchable etc. Throws have their range displayed here)
Damage
Stun
Start-Up (Including first active frame)
Active frames
Recovery
Total frames (startup+active+recovery-1)
Advantage on hit
Advantage on Block
Modified Hitstun
Modified Blockstun (these two show how slow a move cancelled into on the first possible frame can be and still be a combo/block string)
(FA)DC on hit
(FA)DC on block (These show the frame advantage after FADCing or normal dash cancelling on hit or block)
Character-specific cancel on hit
Character-specific cancel on block (These either show the advantage after something like Guy's run cancels or how slow a move can be and still be a combo/blockstring from something like Hakan's crisco-cancels)

These are the basics that needs to be available as easily as possible, then we have the extended data:

(FA)BDC on hit
(FA)BDC on block (These show the frame advantage after FADCing or normal dash cancelling backwards on hit or block)
Actual Hitstun
Actual Blockstun
Hitstop
Meter gain (Start-up)
Meter Gain (Hit)
Meter Gain (Opponent, hit)
Meter Gain (Opponent, block)
Cancel-ability
Cancellable frames on hit(might need another category for rekka/light chains since those have different frames (right?))
Cancellable frames on block
Cancellable frames during start-up/whiff
Airborne frames
Strike-invincible frames
Projectile-invincible frames
Throw-invincible frames (Info about upper/lower body specifics go into general notes with an asterisk)
armored frames
Restriction (in which situation the move can't come out, for example, height restriction or if there's a projectile on-screen)
Input Priority
Juggle Potential
JC on Standing
JC on Airborne
JC on Juggle (These three show how much is added to the JC in these situations, or if they cause hitstun, reset, restand, animation, sweep etc)
Hit Effect (This includes stuff like wallbounce, slam, spinny, horizontal, vertical etc. that describes how the opponent acts on hit, also if a normally techable reaction is untechable)
Counterhit effect (ignoring added damage/stun, so for most normals it's "hitstun+3", asterisks are used to explain other things, like the float on Ryu's EX hadoken)
General notes (stuff like "force stand, charge time, frames having different damage or stun" etc. goes here)

[error1]

1. Ono!
http://code.google.com/p/ssf4ae-tools/
http://onotool.wikispaces.com/

You can get all information from it, but it basically all requires some math and knowledge.
Stuff like damage and meter is an easy one for one thing.
Juggle potential is pretty easy, but even that is stored in four different places, so you have to understand how it works.
Hitstun works the weirdest.

2. virtual dub

3. blockstop is normally the same as hitstop
armor frames
jc on start ( when you use it to start a combo it uses a different number )
Hit effect ( hit, script, blow, bound )
input priority ( if you do multiple inputs, what comes out )
Restriction ( u1,u2, stance, distance, height, etc )
changes on ko

[Doopliss]

1. Ono!
http://code.google.com/p/ssf4ae-tools/
http://onotool.wikispaces.com/

You can get all information from it, but it basically all requires some math and knowledge.
Stuff like damage and meter is an easy one for one thing.
Juggle potential is pretty easy, but even that is stored in four different places, so you have to understand how it works.
Hitstun works the weirdest.

2. virtual dub

3. blockstop is normally the same as hitstop
armor frames
jc on start ( when you use it to start a combo it uses a different number )
Hit effect ( hit, script, blow, bound )
input priority ( if you do multiple inputs, what comes out )
Restriction ( u1,u2, stance, distance, height, etc )
changes on ko

1: It's annoying how hitstun has to be difficult when it's basically the most important one, but thanks.

2: Oh yeah, forgot about that. Thanks.

3: "JC on start" is covered by JC on airhit and JC on grounded, isn't it?
"hit effect" is basically what I meant with "knockdown type", but "hit effect" is a better name.
With "changes on ko", you mean like normals causing float and stuff like Ultras and Seth's QCB+K doesn't animate?

[error1]

3: "JC on start" is covered by JC on airhit and JC on grounded, isn't it?
"hit effect" is basically what I meant with "knockdown type", but "hit effect" is a better name.
With "changes on ko", you mean like normals causing float and stuff like Ultras and Seth's QCB+K doesn't animate?

ok yeah I guess those are just different words for the same thing.

what I'm calling hit effect is different from what you are calling "knockdown type"
The game has two column for that, stuff like wallbounce, slam, spinny, horizontal, vertical etc. are just scripts.
It's probably not an important user distinction.

I was thinking more of moves that had flows that triggered on ko

[Doopliss]

I was thinking more of moves that had flows that triggered on ko

Flows?

[error1]

it's what ono! calls triggered move transitions

[Doopliss]

I still don't get it, do you have an example?

[error1]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35396368/flow.png

[Doopliss]

I mean, what exactly does it do in-game?

[error1]

It does a different script, it can do anything

[Doopliss]

Ok, but what, it triggers stuff like Ultra Combo Finishes, or...?

[onReload]

just guessing - like, the slow KO animation?

[error1]

no nothing like that, generally it makes it so you can't go cinematic post ko, but it can do anything

[TomSinister]

Dont forget to include what frames are cancleable and by what. For instance, I know chun's c.lk is chain cancleable into ex legs. Deejay's c.hp is only special cancleable on the first active frame; stuff like that!

[Doopliss]

Dont forget to include what frames are cancleable and by what. For instance, I know chun's c.lk is chain cancleable into ex legs. Deejay's c.hp is only special cancleable on the first active frame; stuff like that!

No worries, I'll keep that in mind.

[Doopliss]

I think I'll wait for the PC version of USFIV before I start doing this. No need to rush it now. Also, I totally forgot that standard start-up values include the first active frame, so I must remember that the total frame formula is "startup+active+recovery-1".

[TomSinister]

Push on block/hit might also be useful, if you can find it.

[Doopliss]

Push on block/hit might also be useful, if you can find it.

You mean ranges? I don't think that would be easy to find. I guess it can also vary based on pushboxes and such even if there is data for it.

[error1]

push is easy to list just the game treats it different if the opponent is grounded or in the air, for juggles you probably need to list gravity too.

I think I'll wait for the PC version of USFIV before I start doing this. No need to rush it now. Also, I totally forgot that standard start-up values include the first active frame, so I must remember that the total frame formula is "startup+active+recovery-1".

that's not the formula the game uses so I wouldn't worry about it.

[Doopliss]

push is easy to list just the game treats it different if the opponent is grounded or in the air, for juggles you probably need to list gravity too.

I think I'll wait for the PC version of USFIV before I start doing this. No need to rush it now. Also, I totally forgot that standard start-up values include the first active frame, so I must remember that the total frame formula is "startup+active+recovery-1".

that's not the formula the game uses so I wouldn't worry about it.

Does the game even have something corresponding to a "total frames" value? Also, I want this data to be extensive, but it doesn't need to contain exactly everything. If it's a value that can't be measured in frames or another way that's easy to visualize, you'll have a hard time interpreting the written data. The only value of that kind I was planning on including was the throw range data, simply because it's already a part of the standard frame data.

[Maj]

This is probably obvious, but projectile reflect/absorb frames would be useful too. So would projectile lifetimes for those that dissipate, like Dhalsim's and Chun Li's.

If you want to be really thorough, i'm sure people would appreciate frame data for common techniques like the fastest possible Cammy divekick or Rufus divekick - from first jump frame to last recovery frame. Also wakeup timings and any other universal feature that isn't actually standardized.

[Doopliss]

This is probably obvious, but projectile reflect/absorb frames would be useful too. So would projectile lifetimes for those that dissipate, like Dhalsim's and Chun Li's.

If you want to be really thorough, i'm sure people would appreciate frame data for common techniques like the fastest possible Cammy divekick or Rufus divekick - from first jump frame to last recovery frame. Also wakeup timings and any other universal feature that isn't actually standardized.

Since there's only a single reflecting special in the game, I'll cover that in general notes. If projectile absorb frames are not the same as the active frames of those moves I'll add it. Projectile lifetime goes under active frames.

As for the divekicks, I was planning on listing the maximum frame advantage of air moves. Wake-up differences goes under general notes.

[Maj]

If projectile lifetime goes under active frames, then active frames will overlap recovery frames and you'll have weird total numbers. Plus it'll be less clear when the fireball is created.

[Doopliss]

If projectile lifetime goes under active frames, then active frames will overlap recovery frames and you'll have weird total numbers. Plus it'll be less clear when the fireball is created.

I haven't really decided how to handle projectiles yet, but total frames will simply countain the total amount of time that the character will be locked into animation.

[error1]

Does the game even have something corresponding to a "total frames" value?

yes, two of them

[Maj]

I haven't really decided how to handle projectiles yet, but total frames will simply countain the total amount of time that the character will be locked into animation.

Yeah but in this case, startup+active+recovery won't add up to a number anywhere near your total number. Hence, weird.

Plus from a character frame data perspective, the only interesting "active" number is the frame when the projectile is created. (Plus this is assuming that all projectiles become active as soon as they're created, which may not be the case. If that assumption isn't true, then clumping them all together will cause even weirder math.)

Plus how would you even enumerate double fireballs like Akuma's EX air FB with a single number?

[error1]

some ultra fireballs are not active the frame they are created

[Doopliss]

I haven't really decided how to handle projectiles yet, but total frames will simply countain the total amount of time that the character will be locked into animation.

Yeah but in this case, startup+active+recovery won't add up to a number anywhere near your total number. Hence, weird.

Plus from a character frame data perspective, the only interesting "active" number is the frame when the projectile is created. (Plus this is assuming that all projectiles become active as soon as they're created, which may not be the case. If that assumption isn't true, then clumping them all together will cause even weirder math.)

Plus how would you even enumerate double fireballs like Akuma's EX air FB with a single number?

That's why I won't use that forumla for projectiles. That formula is just for 1-hit grounded normals/specials.

Like error said, Ultras can be created before they are active. The prime example is Dhalsim's U1. If a projectile is created sooner than the first active frame, I'll write so in the general notes.

I don't. Air moves generally have variable recoveries, and in this case also variable active frames. Start-up and how many frames pass between the fireballs is all that matters.

[Maj]

Haha ok, good luck.