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SSF4:AE Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:26 pm
by Doopliss
Damn it, it happened. They buffed Seth's HP and Stun. So there goes a lot of stun combos and kill combos. Hopefully the Evil Ryu & Oni thing is real, and one of them has 750 HP and/or 750 stun.

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:36 pm
by Snoooootch
Haha, that'd makes some new combos at least. I'm happy for seth getting a bit stronger, but no Combo vid wise.

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:38 pm
by Doopliss
I'm angry that they couldn't buff him in other areas than stun & health. I want him to have 750 HP and stun and still be worthy of those low amounts.

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:23 am
by error1
balancing by decreasing hp is about the worst thing they can do gameplay wise. It means that they made a character like pet shop who is way to good but rather then balancing him by making his moves worse they take the easy way out and make him easier to kill. Just look at Shin Akuma and Omega Rugal from cvs2, they are crappy characters largely because of how they were balanced.

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:24 am
by Maj
Actually those two were never balanced at all. Their stamina is weak because it's tradition, but they were never allowed in tournaments and it has nothing to do with balance. The four "evil" characters are banned only because they're not available in the arcade. The argument never went beyond that.

If they were in the arcade version, you can bet that people would be using Shin Akuma as an R1 at least. The other three aren't as good, but i'm sure they'd all get used to some extent. Who knows, one or two of these four might have even ended up in top tier.

But they were clearly never meant to be played competitively. They're just typical broken bosses, included for cosmetic purposes more than anything else.

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:58 am
by Maj
Anyway i don't think 800 vitality / 900 stun is gonna break Seth. I think 900 vitality would make him broken though. With 800 vitality he might be balanced, and if he ends up too strong then they can weaken his moves. But 750 vitality is too low to accurately gauge what needs fixing.

If it was up to me, i'd aim for upper middle tier with Seth. We don't really need him to be top tier. He's a pretty boring character design and i doubt there are very many people who actually care whether he's a viable tournament character. I'd be way more worried about him compromising balance. I think strengthening Seth has more risks than benefits.

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:43 am
by Doopliss
They should just give us vanilla Seth back imo...

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:40 pm
by Pokey86
I agree with you Maj, balancing Seth is probably the most dangerous character to alter... That said, them opting to remove his Jump HP is a big deal,i mean i don't think they could have taken away another move used more. I can understand why it's being done though, that stetch limb punch was never meant to be combined with a fast jump.

However i didn't want them to take the route of "weaken him & buff his health" even though it's probably the easiest way to balance him. Either way i'll still probably use him. I hope they don't hit Akuma to hard.

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:52 pm
by ShinjiGohan
Remember when all characters had the same life bar?
Pepperidge farm remembers.

Remember when all the characters had the same defensive rating?
Pepperidge farm remembers.

lol Just had to say it.

Though seriously I think all this shit is getting too complex for its own good. Next they'll add a windy stage that will change the pushback from combos dynamically.

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:31 pm
by onReload
ShinjiGohan wrote: Next they'll add a windy stage that will change the pushback from combos dynamically.
Well...You do have SSBM with its Green Greens stage. It has wind...

...but on a more serious note, take a look at some of the big name non-Street Fighter games, some of them are a lot more complex.

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:54 am
by Snoooootch
Well, still no mention on whether or not Fei's got Cr. mp to rekka combo or not. I hate that the invincibility on his Chicken wing was removed. That's a huge nerf for me. I do it close range to avoid tech grabs. I get a full combo instead. No I can't do that....

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:45 am
by onReload
SRK's translated Dee Jay changes:
Far st.MK is changed to be a 2-hit normal, and it got adjusted in damage distribution, in start-up, and in the total duration.
1st hit is cancelable, so combos such as
cr.LP -> far st.MK -> specials and close st.MK -> far st.MK -> specials are possible.
...and his Air Slasher has better recovery evidently.
MK/HK/EX version's 1st hit deals longer hitstun, so going for 1st hit of dread kicks (MK/HK/EX) -> FADC -> combo may be great.
Haha I asked about this being possible then I read the rest of the post...sigh, I'm dumb. so I guess Dee Jay wasn't much of a special -> FADC type of guy before, huh? especially if you can cancel from a far normal, maybe he'll have some good loops...except:
Forward dash has more frames where you can input Super/Ultra combo command.
So maybe not. Theory combo video making go!

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:53 am
by Doopliss
I just want to get my hands on the new characters. Also Dan, he has like 10x more link combos now.

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:27 am
by error1
he has better normals for sonic boom loops then guile, so less recovery on them would be a big deal

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:55 am
by Doopliss
They also have less hit & block stun, so it evens out I guess.

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:18 am
by error1
Doopliss wrote:They also have less hit & block stun, so it evens out I guess.
all projectiles cause the same ground stun, 22 frames, multihit projectiles screw up the math but they are the same too

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:27 pm
by Doopliss
It says in the developers blog that it has lessened hit & block stun.

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:20 am
by onReload
just translated the yun/yang movelists from super...feels kinda empty when you consider the fact that it's their 3s movelists minus a few things

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:22 am
by Don Vecta
onReload wrote:just translated the yun/yang movelists from super...feels kinda empty when you consider the fact that it's their 3s movelists minus a few things
Perhaps they rely now more in their normals?

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:34 am
by Doopliss
onReload wrote:just translated the yun/yang movelists from super...feels kinda empty when you consider the fact that it's their 3s movelists minus a few things
Did the same yesterday. I don't know much about japanese, but if you look at the 3S movelist at the same time, it's quite easy. I'm REALLY happy they made Senei Enbu QCBx2+P instead of QCF, otherwise you would cancel into it all the time when you tried to do Rekkas.

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:10 pm
by error1
does Fei Long have that problem?

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:01 pm
by Smileymike101
Rekkas are not cancelable at all, into nothing, whereas Yang's rekkas can be super cancelled/FADC i think.

Re: SSF4:AE Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:06 pm
by Maj
Figured it was about time we split the SSF4AE discussion from the SSF4 discussion to avoid confusing the two. This way it's clearer for anyone who needs to go back and search for info on SSF4 characters before the AE tweaks.

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:59 pm
by Doopliss
Smileymike101 wrote:Rekkas are not cancelable at all, into nothing, whereas Yang's rekkas can be super cancelled/FADC i think.
Exactly. They have said that at least Yang's 2nd Rekka is FADCable, so if Senei Enbu was QCFx2, it would come out instead of the 3rd rekka.

Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:12 am
by onReload
double post, see below

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Re: SSF4 Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:16 am
by onReload
error1 wrote:does Fei Long have that problem?
Not really, but of course with the SF2 chars, they HAD to keep some of the stupid inputs (lol @ chickenwing)...except for those that were changed in alpha, of course. SF3 is whatever we want! double half circle back, sure! charge motion for dudley, why the hell not!?

I guess, if I had to defend them here, you're more likely to mash the rekkas if you're using his EX version, 'cause that requires tighter grouping of QCF motions. so maybe if you go to mash out an EX rekka with yang, and mess up by mashing two qcf motions before pressing punch, then...but that's still pretty silly. and I would more than highly doubt that the rekkas will be super-cancelable; they weren't in SF3, fei long's aren't, it would be kinda gross, etc.

...so really it's SFIV being ACCESSIBLE but SHOUTS TO OLD-SKOOL INPUTS BRO

edit because I am a moron:
They have said that at least Yang's 2nd Rekka is FADCable, so if Senei Enbu was QCFx2, it would come out instead of the 3rd rekka.
Hm. I suppose all moves that are FADC-able are also super-cancel-able, IIRC...it will be interesting to see if anything is possible after [ qcf+p + qcf+p xx super ], even though the input will be really hard...but not for TA. still, my guess is that if this is possible, you probably can't link anything from the second rekka. though that would make for an interesting technique, and i would laugh at everyone trying to learn how to do a qcbx2 super after a qcf move.

Re: SSF4:AE Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:36 am
by Doopliss
Just do C.Vipers Thunder knuckle into super for a similar effect. I doubt Rekka into Super is harder than, say, HP TK into Super (Actually I have no idea how hard that is, I have to try it). And I heard the second rekka have massive frame advantage even without FADC, but then you probably have a range issue.

Re: SSF4:AE Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:55 am
by onReload
Maybe. I just doubt the rekkas will have as much or more hitstun/hitfreeze than a one hit move from Viper.

Re: SSF4:AE Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:35 am
by Doopliss
Still, HP TK into super was quite easy, so there should be no problem.

Re: SSF4:AE Combo Engine Investigation

Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:03 am
by Maj
Second hit of Yun's EX shoulder whiffs against crouching Honda? I wonder if he can get frame advantage off that.