SSF4:AE Combo Engine Investigation

[Doopliss]

Damn it, it happened. They buffed Seth's HP and Stun. So there goes a lot of stun combos and kill combos. Hopefully the Evil Ryu & Oni thing is real, and one of them has 750 HP and/or 750 stun.

[Snoooootch]

Haha, that'd makes some new combos at least. I'm happy for seth getting a bit stronger, but no Combo vid wise.

[Doopliss]

I'm angry that they couldn't buff him in other areas than stun & health. I want him to have 750 HP and stun and still be worthy of those low amounts.

[error1]

balancing by decreasing hp is about the worst thing they can do gameplay wise. It means that they made a character like pet shop who is way to good but rather then balancing him by making his moves worse they take the easy way out and make him easier to kill. Just look at Shin Akuma and Omega Rugal from cvs2, they are crappy characters largely because of how they were balanced.

[Maj]

Actually those two were never balanced at all. Their stamina is weak because it's tradition, but they were never allowed in tournaments and it has nothing to do with balance. The four "evil" characters are banned only because they're not available in the arcade. The argument never went beyond that.

If they were in the arcade version, you can bet that people would be using Shin Akuma as an R1 at least. The other three aren't as good, but i'm sure they'd all get used to some extent. Who knows, one or two of these four might have even ended up in top tier.

But they were clearly never meant to be played competitively. They're just typical broken bosses, included for cosmetic purposes more than anything else.

[Maj]

Anyway i don't think 800 vitality / 900 stun is gonna break Seth. I think 900 vitality would make him broken though. With 800 vitality he might be balanced, and if he ends up too strong then they can weaken his moves. But 750 vitality is too low to accurately gauge what needs fixing.

If it was up to me, i'd aim for upper middle tier with Seth. We don't really need him to be top tier. He's a pretty boring character design and i doubt there are very many people who actually care whether he's a viable tournament character. I'd be way more worried about him compromising balance. I think strengthening Seth has more risks than benefits.

[Doopliss]

They should just give us vanilla Seth back imo...

[Pokey86]

I agree with you Maj, balancing Seth is probably the most dangerous character to alter... That said, them opting to remove his Jump HP is a big deal,i mean i don't think they could have taken away another move used more. I can understand why it's being done though, that stetch limb punch was never meant to be combined with a fast jump.

However i didn't want them to take the route of "weaken him & buff his health" even though it's probably the easiest way to balance him. Either way i'll still probably use him. I hope they don't hit Akuma to hard.

[ShinjiGohan]

Remember when all characters had the same life bar?
Pepperidge farm remembers.

Remember when all the characters had the same defensive rating?
Pepperidge farm remembers.

lol Just had to say it.

Though seriously I think all this shit is getting too complex for its own good. Next they'll add a windy stage that will change the pushback from combos dynamically.

[onReload]

Next they'll add a windy stage that will change the pushback from combos dynamically.

Well...You do have SSBM with its Green Greens stage. It has wind...

...but on a more serious note, take a look at some of the big name non-Street Fighter games, some of them are a lot more complex.

[Snoooootch]

Well, still no mention on whether or not Fei's got Cr. mp to rekka combo or not. I hate that the invincibility on his Chicken wing was removed. That's a huge nerf for me. I do it close range to avoid tech grabs. I get a full combo instead. No I can't do that....

[onReload]

SRK's translated Dee Jay changes:

Far st.MK is changed to be a 2-hit normal, and it got adjusted in damage distribution, in start-up, and in the total duration.
1st hit is cancelable, so combos such as
cr.LP -> far st.MK -> specials and close st.MK -> far st.MK -> specials are possible.

...and his Air Slasher has better recovery evidently.

MK/HK/EX version's 1st hit deals longer hitstun, so going for 1st hit of dread kicks (MK/HK/EX) -> FADC -> combo may be great.

Haha I asked about this being possible then I read the rest of the post...sigh, I'm dumb. so I guess Dee Jay wasn't much of a special -> FADC type of guy before, huh? especially if you can cancel from a far normal, maybe he'll have some good loops...except:

Forward dash has more frames where you can input Super/Ultra combo command.

So maybe not. Theory combo video making go!

[Doopliss]

I just want to get my hands on the new characters. Also Dan, he has like 10x more link combos now.

[error1]

he has better normals for sonic boom loops then guile, so less recovery on them would be a big deal

[Doopliss]

They also have less hit & block stun, so it evens out I guess.

[error1]

They also have less hit & block stun, so it evens out I guess.

all projectiles cause the same ground stun, 22 frames, multihit projectiles screw up the math but they are the same too

[Doopliss]

It says in the developers blog that it has lessened hit & block stun.

[onReload]

just translated the yun/yang movelists from super...feels kinda empty when you consider the fact that it's their 3s movelists minus a few things

[Don Vecta]

just translated the yun/yang movelists from super...feels kinda empty when you consider the fact that it's their 3s movelists minus a few things

Perhaps they rely now more in their normals?

[Doopliss]

just translated the yun/yang movelists from super...feels kinda empty when you consider the fact that it's their 3s movelists minus a few things

Did the same yesterday. I don't know much about japanese, but if you look at the 3S movelist at the same time, it's quite easy. I'm REALLY happy they made Senei Enbu QCBx2+P instead of QCF, otherwise you would cancel into it all the time when you tried to do Rekkas.

[error1]

does Fei Long have that problem?

[Smileymike101]

Rekkas are not cancelable at all, into nothing, whereas Yang's rekkas can be super cancelled/FADC i think.

[Maj]

Figured it was about time we split the SSF4AE discussion from the SSF4 discussion to avoid confusing the two. This way it's clearer for anyone who needs to go back and search for info on SSF4 characters before the AE tweaks.

[Doopliss]

Rekkas are not cancelable at all, into nothing, whereas Yang's rekkas can be super cancelled/FADC i think.

Exactly. They have said that at least Yang's 2nd Rekka is FADCable, so if Senei Enbu was QCFx2, it would come out instead of the 3rd rekka.

[onReload]

double post, see below

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[onReload]

does Fei Long have that problem?

Not really, but of course with the SF2 chars, they HAD to keep some of the stupid inputs (lol @ chickenwing)...except for those that were changed in alpha, of course. SF3 is whatever we want! double half circle back, sure! charge motion for dudley, why the hell not!?

I guess, if I had to defend them here, you're more likely to mash the rekkas if you're using his EX version, 'cause that requires tighter grouping of QCF motions. so maybe if you go to mash out an EX rekka with yang, and mess up by mashing two qcf motions before pressing punch, then...but that's still pretty silly. and I would more than highly doubt that the rekkas will be super-cancelable; they weren't in SF3, fei long's aren't, it would be kinda gross, etc.

...so really it's SFIV being ACCESSIBLE but SHOUTS TO OLD-SKOOL INPUTS BRO

edit because I am a moron:

They have said that at least Yang's 2nd Rekka is FADCable, so if Senei Enbu was QCFx2, it would come out instead of the 3rd rekka.

Hm. I suppose all moves that are FADC-able are also super-cancel-able, IIRC...it will be interesting to see if anything is possible after [ qcf+p + qcf+p xx super ], even though the input will be really hard...but not for TA. still, my guess is that if this is possible, you probably can't link anything from the second rekka. though that would make for an interesting technique, and i would laugh at everyone trying to learn how to do a qcbx2 super after a qcf move.

[Doopliss]

Just do C.Vipers Thunder knuckle into super for a similar effect. I doubt Rekka into Super is harder than, say, HP TK into Super (Actually I have no idea how hard that is, I have to try it). And I heard the second rekka have massive frame advantage even without FADC, but then you probably have a range issue.

[onReload]

Maybe. I just doubt the rekkas will have as much or more hitstun/hitfreeze than a one hit move from Viper.

[Doopliss]

Still, HP TK into super was quite easy, so there should be no problem.

[Maj]

Second hit of Yun's EX shoulder whiffs against crouching Honda? I wonder if he can get frame advantage off that.