I was doing a bit of testing for a write up I'm doing and I wondered if anyone could confirm some stuff for me. Am I right in thinking that if you get hit from a fireball on the same frame you land from a jump, you will still be knocked down as if you had been in the air? Also does anyone know if this happens on the frame before you leave the ground too?
I've been writing random crap and recording clips for a few hours and I just don't want to test anymore for a while, lol. Anyone who already's knows or can be bothered to test stuff out. I'd really appreciate any info.
Thanks!
EDIT: bollocks! I've posted this in the wrong forum. Sorry, feel free to move it to the right place.
Hmm, theoretically, the second situation (getting hit in pre-jump) should work -if- you combo into it. AFAIK, the normal "pre-jump flip out" glitch only occurs if you manage to hit the opponent on the frame before they become airborn, then hit them again while in that hitstun. I'll try to do some testing and see what I come up with.
EDIT: Just tried it and it worked. Ryu vs. Sim at point blank range, Ryu inputs Jab, two frames later Dhalsim inputs Up. Jab hits, Dhalsim goes into ground hitstun, Ryu cancels into Jab Hadouken, Jab Hadouken knocks down.
EDIT 2: After a few tries, I think I managed to get a fireball to hit Sim on the very first frame of his landing animation, and he went into ground hitstun.
How are you guys figuring out when the FB hits? Cuz it's kinda difficult to find the first frame that things actually connect in those old games. Maybe it knocks down because it's hitting earlier than you think it is. Either way i hope you're using WW, CE, or SSF2 so that you don't have to deal with turbo speed frame skipping.
I used ST with an "SSF2 speed" cheat, so there's no frame-skipping.
As for telling when something connects... on the very frame on which the collision occurs, the targeted character is still in whatever state they should normally be in. For example, when I punched Dhalsim out of his pre-jump animation, when Ryu displays the first active frame of his jab, Dhalsim is still displaying his pre-jump pose. This is the frame that the collision actually occurs. The attacker's score is updated on this frame. It isn't until the next frame, the first frame of "hit stop" (the time of ~14 frames in which both attacker and target are frozen in place, with the latter jittering back and forth slightly) that the target actually goes into their hitstun pose, the hitspark appears, etc.
Dhalsim displays his pre-jump animation for two frames. I timed Ryu's jab so that the first active frame coincided with the second of those two frames, thus cauing the collsion to occur on the very frame before Dhalsim would have been airborne. For the landing from a jump scenario, I just tried Dhalsim jumping and Ryu throwing fireballs several times, going through frame-by-frame, until I managed to get a situation in which Dhalsim displayed his landing pose for exactly one frame (the frame of collision) before going into his hitstun pose.
So basically, the frame right before hitstun starts, the frame on which the attacker's score is updated, that's the frame in which the actual collision takes place.
Cool, thanks felineki. You reckon you could try that out on the CPS1 games. Any from WW to turbo, against chun li if possible. I'm hoping you have different results if fact, if you don't I'm going to be hella confused, lol.
Sure, I'll update this post with my findings shortly.
EDIT: Vs. Chun Li in CE; Same as before, basically. Ryu inputs Jab, next frame, Chun Li inputs Up. Chun Li goes into ground hitstun, Ryu cancels into Jab Hadouken, Chun gets knocked down. Strangely, there seems to be an extra frame between the frame of collision and the first frame of hitstun when compared to ST. Frame of collision occurs on the last frame in which Chun Li displays her pre-jump pose, score is updated accordingly. Next frame has Chun Li in the first frame of her actual jumping anmation. Frame after that has her in ground hitstun.
EDIT 2: Again Vs. Chun Li in CE. Got Chun to eat a fireball right as she landed, Ryu's score changed on the same frame that Chun first displays her landing pose. Normal ground hitstun.
EDIT 3: Same scenario as before, managed to tag her on her very last airborne frame. Due to the odd extra frame between collision and hitstun here, she actually displayed her landing pose for one frame before going into the knockdown state. Maybe this is what you experienced? She was actually hit while in the jump state, but due to that small window between the frame of collision and the first frame of effect, she was able to go to the landing state for one frame, making it look like she was hit out of that.
Last edited by felineki on Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Yeah there's some weird shit going on with CPS1 games thinking they're gonna do one thing then changing their minds. One of the combos in my Guile vid has his sweep connecting simultaneously with a Sonic Boom against CE Vega, who goes into knockdown animation for one frame then goes into ground hitstun. I'm sure Rainbow Edition is full of this kinda stuff cuz of all the slow projectile setups.
argh, I honestly don't know what's going on. I just fired up WW and when I hit gief on his first landing frame with a sonic boom he get's knowcked down. Am I doing it wrong and if it does work how come it isn't working in CE?
I'm going to try a few things out.
EDIT: just read you're 3rd edit felinki. That's exactly what I'm talking about. You rock dude. Now if you want a challenge, baring in mind I'm almost certain that it's actually impossible, try and get that to happen on ST
Last edited by desk on Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
EDIT: Trying Guile Vs. Gief in WW. Haven't been able to actually hit him on the first landing frame yet, but the "hit on last airborne frame, score updates, next frame has landing animation, frame after that has knockdown" deal works the same as Ryu Vs. Chun in CE.
Last edited by felineki on Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
I just remembered that some characters can't get hit out of the air if they land on a fireball. This came up on SRK a long time ago so i'm just gonna copy and paste:
It depends on the jumping character and the jump. Test it out by throwing a slow fireball and having the opponent land on it. Some opponents get hit in the air, some land and get hit on the ground. For example, LP Sonic Boom will hit Dhalsim's vertical jump in the air, knocking him down. However, LP Sonic Boom can't hit Dhalsim's backward jump in the air, so Dhalsim lands and then gets hit. In this case the LP Sonic Boom is unblockable because there's no blocking on the first landing frame.
The deciding factor is the character's last airborne frame. Some characters have a large hitbox during this frame while other characters are still quite high in the air during this frame. Attacks with low hitboxes like Cammy's super will do full damage against most jumping opponents whereas attacks with mid-level hitboxes like DeeJay's super will only do full damage against a select few characters.
... So, none of this answers the original question but i'm just saying that different opponents might behave differently.
Last edited by Maj on Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
so yeah, you got the same effect happening and thankfully It's confirmed a bunch of stuff for me. So do you think it's character and projectile specific? I don't know why it wouldn't work across the board. Oh yeah and I think it's much easier to do with sonic booms because I think the hitbox is smaller.
And the ST challenge stands. If you can get the same thing to happen on any character you win mad props. But I'm pretty sure it can't be done.
EDIT: maj, that's hella useful and again confirms loads of stuff I've been testing for ages. mint!
Cool, glad we were able to find out what was going on. That score thing is really useful for finding out the exact frame on which an attack connects. It's something I noticed quite a while ago, but I don't think I've ever brought it up anywhere.
And yeah, as far as I can tell, duplicating this exactly in ST shouldn't be possible since in ST it seems to go "frame of collision -> first frame of effect" (hitstun, knockdown, whatever), whereas in CPS1 it's "frame of collision -> frame that naturally follows as if there had been no collision (i.e. a character in the latter half of a jump will be lower now than they were in the last frame, a character who was in the last frame of pre-jump on the frame of collision will now be in first frame of jump) -> first frame of effect (effect following from frame of collision; the game doesn't care if you managed to go into landing state during that last frame, you were in jump state when you got hit, so you go into knockdown state now)."
This make my life much easier. So is ST completely different to SSF2? because I've gotten the same effect in SSF2 without much trouble. let me know if you test any stuff out. and thanks again guys. Problem solved
coolio. So are you certain that those are the reasons for the effect not happening in ST? I only ask because if you try it out in HyperSF it still works against the older characters but not ST versions. Not that I'm doubting you, lol. I just didn't realise the character differences were so involved that they would actually react in a different way to being hit.
Also, I tried for many hours to get this happening in ST because I assumed it was a hitbox thing. I tried out so many characters vs so many other characters and got no results... now I know why lol.
The other cool thing about the Sonic Boom is that it never disappears. With most other fireballs, there are a few animation frames where they just become invisible so that the whole thing can have a fake transparency effect.
That whole situation is a little messy. It all makes sense theoretically if you're just adding and subtracting frame data, but when you try to look at it visually frame by frame, it's very hard to tell when the hit actually happens and when the opponent must start blocking to avoid getting hit. Starting to block on the frame of impact is iffy too. In some games in works, in other games it doesn't, and in other games it works 50/50.
But yeah, this stuff doesn't come up too often even when working on tool-assited frame-step combos. Once you get your combo started, as long as the opponent is holding a block direction, you can pretty much ignore the point-of-impact visuals and just focus on whether or not they end up blocking.
Does anybody know how to do one of those throw recoveries that lets the thrown character land instantly, without first flying up? I don't know what the conditions are, though it seems to occur mostly in the corner.
Bob_Sagat wrote:Does anybody know how to do one of those throw recoveries that lets the thrown character land instantly, without first flying up? I don't know what the conditions are, though it seems to occur mostly in the corner.
SF2T, teching Chun's throw doesn't really launch people. When it gets teched, Zangief can retaliation piledriver. Other throws (and possibly holds) may have similar properties.
Hitting the wall cuts off flying time, so that may combine with throw techs for faster than normal recovery.
Hm, does this happen all the time against Chun? It happened to me in a match recently, playing Guile against Claw. He did his normal throw against me(slam throws like suplexes seem to cause this effect a lot) in the corner. I can't remember what stage it was, but it had a breakable object. It broke and Guile instantly recovered, like in one frame. I tried to recreate it, but to no avail. I'll check out Chun too, thanks.
Real mindgames start at the character select screen. When you pick the Start colour for your character, you can't keep holding the Start button to still switch to the Hold colour. For some reason the game doesn't allow this. Experienced players know this and will never expect you to be able to do it anyway!!! MINDGAMES!!!
Either press and hold Jab before the character select screen comes up, then pick your character by pressing Start. Keep holding Jab until the character changes to the Hold colour, OR press Jab and Start at almost the same time and keep holding Jab.
This trick only works with the Jab button.
So while your opponent is scratching their head, trying to figure out how the hell you did this, you're playing the match with the advantage of a clear mind! Enjoy.
EDIT: When you're P2, use Strong, in stead of Jab!
We all know that you can buffer a Rush Punch into Super with Rog, but I've had it happen to me two times that I've tried to Rush Upper underneath a Ryu that tried to cross me up with an air Tatsu, then come back the other way with the Super, but in stead of the Super, I got another Straight Rush.
All with one charge, like it comes out instantly. Short Rush Upper one way, then Straight Rush in the other direction.
How the hell does this happen? Aren't you supposed to lose your charge after starting a special like that? The Super I can understand, but this is crazy. My goal now is to somehow make both Rush Punches hit, if I can figure out exactly how this works, or at least, how to do it on purpose. Connecting a Super afterwards would be the holy grail.
You lose charge but you don't lose the command window for performing a special move. The reason rush punch into super works is because the command window for super is longer, which gives the rush punch enough time to connect and recover. If you whiff the rush punch, there's no impact freeze so it recovers faster.
Blanka can do this kind of stuff too. Just have an opponent jump in the corner and whiff Rolling Attack under them, then you can super or upball or whatever. He can even do it in SF4.
Anyway i don't think it's possible to combo two regular dash punches from a single charge. Recovery plus impact freeze just takes too long. You might have better luck with a trade. What's the shortest possible interrupt (hit stun plus impact freeze) in ST? It's probably something janky like Dee Jay's Machine Gun Upper.
Yeah, I knew why the super works. Most charge combos in EX are based on that concept.
The thing I just didn't know about was the double charge trick. Thanks for the explanation about the specials window.
Oh, and are "true" TODs possible in ST? ie. Combos that drain the whole life bar without the opponent getting stunned? I saw a few in this vid but I can't tell if they're training mode only combos or if they'll work in a match:
Yup, it's possible (but still difficult) if the first dash punch whiffs.
As for non-dizzy 100% damage combos in ST, they're definitely possible. I found one with Guile a long time ago. Depends on the character though. There are a few who can't do it - mainly the ones with grab supers, because supers generally have high damage-to-stun ratios.
I'm not sure there's enough material to be had if you do just that. You're also likely to be skirting the limits of the dizzy system, and the combos will, most probably, require elaborate set-ups that are quite impractical without tool assistance.
if fact, if you don't I'm going to be hella confused, lol.
lol.