The perfect training mode.

[ShinjiGohan]

What would it take for a training mode to be perfect?

1. Recordable Dummies: You have no idea how much I don't know about SFEX3. If it had some sort of recording dummy mode, I can finally test various move properties, whats a good AA, heck I could program it to do some tick throws or other block strings or set ups so I can practice defending against it.

2. Move List with frame data: Self explainitory

3. Frame counter: Let me know what frame advantage I'm on, what frame disadvantage I'm on. While you're at it, why not list some frame counters for requirements for certain abilities (3 frame windows for momentaries in EX3), or number of frames I have to cancel a normal into a special, or to super, or special to super, frames the opponent is jugglable.

4. Expert mode ala SFEX+a: Great for learning the basics of any character

5. Program the AI: Or at least modify their combo or block strings so when they have an oppurtunity they can put up some top player combos or pressure tactics.

Did I leave anything out?

Oh yeah, make visual hit boxes and throw boxes.

[Maj]

Recordable dummies are a must, but you can use a programmable pad to simulate most situations. Even a crappy mainstream ppad is enough for testing practical scenarios.

Frame data is nice but i think i would prefer having it in a book or on my computer. They would probably have to hire someone to organize all of it into interactive menus, so it's probably not gonna happen. Either way, i don't mind paying an extra 20 bucks for a guide with frame data.

Frame counters would be difficult to implement because a lot of that info changes constantly. You'd have to record a sequence, then watch it frame by frame to see the numbers and even then it wouldn't be easy to figure out what the numbers correspond to. A lot of this stuff can go in a frame data book without sacrificing any information and without cluttering up the training mode screen.

Expert mode is definitely necessary for modern fighting games because most people out there simply don't understand basic mechanics. SF4 absolutely needs an interactive tutorial of some sort if it's ever going to be successful.

Altering the AI sounds very interesting but it also sounds like it would require a lot of effort, which might end up being a waste since everyone prefers playing against humans anyway. Plus no matter how much top player stuff you program into the AI, it's still going to play like a dumb computer. I don't think there's any way to change that unless you're one of the game developers and you have full access to the actual code.

An option to enable visual hit boxes and throw boxes would be awesome. That would change everything and it would probably be very easy to implement.

The one thing that i like about EX3 training mode is the reset button which puts both characters midscreen. CvS2 has a reset option as well, but it's a little annoying because it takes you through the whole round intro every time. It would also be nice to be able to refill meter at the touch of a button instead of having to go three layers deep into the menu, but nobody would appreciate that feature except us combo video makers so i'll stop here before i start listing unmarketable crap that would make my life easier.

[Mike Z]

GGXX AC has a few things that I think are nice, in addition to having the select-reset and various other features already mentioned:
- The input ticker flashes blue to indicate FRC timing on moves (i.e. the requested display for frame-timing windows on moves).
- In addition to recording the dummy, you can record your character and playback both at the same time, to be able to practice the end of difficult combos or find how to finish something.
- You can set guard gauge, burst, and meter level (0%, 25, 50, 75, or full) in the pause menu. Also each time you pause the game, when you unpause, these are set to whatever you left them at. So you can give yourself 75% meter, try something, pause/unpause and have 75% again to try again, without having infinite meter.
- There are also per-character options for various moves, like choosing which items Faust throws, or having Johnny have infinite coins, or start with a Lv 2 or 3 Mist Finer (which then gets used up like normal), or always stay at Lv 2 or 3.
To me, these are the things that make a training mode awesome, as well as the aforementioned Expert Mode from the EX games.

Mike Z

[fullmetalross]

KOF XI has one nice thing, a frame by frame input creator which basically lets you build your own movesets like a ppad would. Its not implemented well because its hard to get it to work right but if done well that would be awesome.

[ShinjiGohan]

In EX, the reset screen button isn't really needed but it is faster. As you can also reset the screen by throwing your opponent.

[ShinjiGohan]

Also, while frame books may be easier, most games (especially console releases) don't get an indepth book on frame data. Like how EX3 didn't. Heck EX2+ didn't either.

[Maj]

One could make the argument that the whole "Why bother printing a guide if you don't have frame data?" movement is a fairly recent development in the culture of fighting game documentarians. Before All About SFA3, 2D fighting game guides never included frame data. CvS1, CvSPro, and MvC2 still have no officially published source of frame data, but the Japanese guides for 3S, CvS2, and CFJ all had extensive numerical info for everything the editors could think of. Indeed, countless hundreds of protips were formulated and published in billions of reputable magazines without the benefit of numbers, charts, or even facts.

Now that players expect frame data, game developers either provide it directly to publishers or at least provide a method for deducing those numbers. The game's (expected) popularity used to be a factor, but CFJ marked the end of that consideration. I don't have the sales figures but there's no way CFJ outsold CvS1.

The point is that if any game developers are/were too lazy to provide guide publishers with frame data, they'd be way too lazy to write all of that info into training mode themselves. I can't imagine a scenario where any sensible (Japanese) publisher would refuse to print any available frame data. We'd have it in a book before we got it in a game, which makes the in-game version kind of pointless in my opinion.

[Mike Z]

Well, technically the game could compute the frame data itself, by analyzing the move. The developers have to mark when hits start and end, how long hitstun is from them, etc, so the game "knows" all that already, it's just a matter of making a training mode that spits it out.

IMO...
Mike Z

[Maj]

I'm sure it could be done but the fact that it's so rare leads me to believe that nobody sees it as a priority. Plus i don't think anyone wants to give the impression that you need to understand and memorize a billion numbers in order to get good at their game. It's one thing to hide all of that away in a guide for the hardcore players to buy from another country. Fighting games have a bad enough reputation in this regard as it is.

Anyway you couldn't do that in all games even if you wanted. I refuse to believe that any frame data was used at any point in the making of any Mortal Kombat title. That particular game engine wasn't "programmed" so much as summoned from Outworld at the cost of many poor Ferrari-driving souls. If you wrote a frame analysis program for MK, all you'd get is a digitized gif of a roll of duct tape. Who digitized the duct tape?? Don't ask such questions, for the answer is madness!

(Ok so maybe i'm a little bit bored at the moment.)