ComboVid.com

Ok, well, happy to help anyways

Doopliss wrote:I'll just mention all the errors I can find:

Zangief:

If you get a 1-hit EX GH with Zangief the opponent isn't knocked down. Dunno if that means the first or the second hit doesn't cause knockdown on a standing opponent.

Yeah it's first hit, fixed

Vega:

Flying barcelona special has 4 hits.

Wow, that's hard as hell to actually hit added

T.Hawk:

There's some typos in T. Hawks Tomahawk Buster seciton, mainly that you wrote normal instead of EX.

Done

Seth:

Seth's Tenmakujinkyaku causes reset, not SKD.

Done, typo

Sakura:

Sakura's U1 causes AUTO if you connect with the 2nd hit, the third hit alone always cause SKD. Well, iirc.

Kinda iffy this, if you focus -> Back dash -> Ultra, if it hits air it causes STAND & the second hit whiffs Evedrytime (Even if you hit, say during backdash it's not a hitbox thing)... I've figured it though. Alot of moves with the Maintain juggle characteristic still cause SKD, i'm guessing these cause SKD but the auto combo comes after the spins... I'm curious what would appen if someone figured a trade situation for these. So basically they're standing, but they're in JP1

Rufus:

Space opera symphony causes SKD on all hits even on standing.

I knew that, god knows what i was thinking.

Forgot to write "EX" on EX GT.

Done

Rufus s.LK causes reset, not SKD.

Done

Makoto:

Abare Tosanami*

What about it?

M.Bison:

All hits of Super have JPX. I actually managed to juggle into the slide part once. I hit the two first hits on Dhalsim, the second SK whiffed, then the slide connected.

I'll take your word for it, i can't replicate it but i don't doubt you.

You can do EX SK after air hit EX Somersault Skull Diver, indicating that it has JP2 or more.

Yeah that was an error, it's JP1 -> JP2, the hits just never hit together when one hits air, a hit box thing i'd guess.

Ken:

Are you sure that the 2nd hit of HP SRK causes float on AA hit?

Nope, you're right... Corrected, it seems many moves can maintain float, but don't create it.

Juri:

U2 has constanly rising JP. You can hit it after 2 high EX fireballs, meaning it has at least JP3 at some point.

You're right here, but all hits cause auto, so i can't really gauge how many hits, i'll do a work around, if you have a better idea of how to label it let me know

Last hit of EX pinwheel is SKD.

Error, fixed

EX Shikusen:

1st: JP0 - SKD - SKD
2nd: JP1 - SKD - SKD
3rd: JP2 - SKD - SKD
4th: JP3 - WALLBOUNCE - WALLBOUNCE

Well, I assume that's what happen if 4th hit hits a grounded opponent. Why do you write AUTO on omves like this?

Mentioned, this IS an auto combo if first hit is blocked the move doesn't come out, nor can you manually prevent them from coming out on hit. & it can't be that as you can follow this with a light pinwheel, or Ultra 1, or Jump HP etc

Ibuki:

I don't think the first hit of whiff Yoroitoshi causes reset on air hit. Can't you get 2 hits form that?

Corrected first hit has altered properties for near/far

You haven't written anything about U2 at all.

Did that earlier

Kazegiri has way more JP than that. EX has less than non-EX though.

Made a typo, it's JP1-2-3, though EX appears to have the same to me.

Gouken:

Denjin:

1: JP1 - Stun - Float
2: JP2 - Stun - Float
3: JP3 - Stun - Float
4: JP4 - Stun - Float
5: JP5 - Stun - Float
6: JP6 - Stun - Float
7: JP8 - Stun - Float
8: JP9 - WALLBOUNCE - WALLBOUNCE

Something like that. Dunno about the exact JP, but it was the stun on the ground I was trying to correct.

I have the correct JP, you have correct ground hits, though i typo'd if i really thought it was float on stun then half the stuff he can do would be impossible.

E.Honda:

Sumo splash has HKD, dunna exactly when, but I guess the 2nd hit has it on ground and in the air.

Fixed

Cody:

Didn't I mention that f.MP has JP as well?

Eh,my most recent additions wern't added (Ibuki's ultra 2, this) must have messed up the edit. Added

Blanka:

Shouldn't you at least mention his new ultras?

Whoops, though i have no way of testing JP

Adon:

You wrote hit 1-5 twice on 1000 jaguars.

Fixed

I'll be taking a second pass over it all tomorrow

I just meant that Makoto's U2 had a misspelled name Nitpickingzzz.

btw, I wouldn't call Dan's air EX danku an auto combo. 3rd hit always comes out and you can connect it alone.

Doopliss wrote:I just meant that Makoto's U2 had a misspelled name Nitpickingzzz.

btw, I wouldn't call Dan's air EX danku an auto combo. 3rd hit always comes out and you can connect it alone.

Are you posotive... if it does come out it has to be damn fast

@ Dudley :
The first hit of his super has JP of 5;
I am pretty positive that the 7th hit of EX MGB doesnt have juggle of 7, as it always wiffed through the opponent in all the juggle i've put it through.

Btw, you're wrong about EX Pinwheel. You can juggle with it after an EX Fireball.

OH RLY!

I'll test the both aboves.

If you look at Maj's new video, EX Sumo Headbutt apparently have JP2.

Doopliss wrote:If you look at Maj's new video, EX Sumo Headbutt apparently have JP2.

YEah, you can trust maj for invalidating my efforts

It probabaly has JP 4, unless you can prove otherwise

It's a shame he didn't tag a super on the end of there to find out if it whiffed or not.

Nah i just got lucky. I was using EX Headbutt instead of ultra to find the earliest frame where he can follow up EX buttdrop because ultrafreeze takes goddamn forever. Then EX Headbutt connected. I mean i probably would've tested it eventually but you never know. Bottom line is i was surprised. My original intent was to follow up with ultra because you get that badass dust cloud during ultrafreeze after he lands from EX buttdrop.

Anyway i tried LP super instead and both hits connected, so super has at least 2+/3+ juggle potential. I also tried ultra and it whiffed, but so did MP super which has the same startup, so it was probably a startup issue.

The thing is, the spacing/timing to connect non-counterhit HP hands on Dhalsim's j.LP is ridiculously precise. I mean like pixel-perfect, one-frame bullshit. So i couldn't test everything i wanted and i was rushing to finish the damn video. If i trade instead (or maybe trade lvl1 Focus Attack) then it should allow me to connect MP super and test ultra. I'll also test EX headbutt xx super for you. But give me a couple of days please.

Maj wrote:Nah i just got lucky. I was using EX Headbutt instead of ultra to find the earliest frame where he can follow up EX buttdrop because ultrafreeze takes goddamn forever. Then EX Headbutt connected. I mean i probably would've tested it eventually but you never know. Bottom line is i was surprised. My original intent was to follow up with ultra because you get that badass dust cloud during ultrafreeze after he lands from EX buttdrop.

Anyway i tried LP super instead and both hits connected, so super has at least 2+/3+ juggle potential. I also tried ultra and it whiffed, but so did MP super which has the same startup, so it was probably a startup issue.

The thing is, the spacing/timing to connect non-counterhit HP hands on Dhalsim's j.LP is ridiculously precise. I mean like pixel-perfect, one-frame bullshit. So i couldn't test everything i wanted and i was rushing to finish the damn video. If i trade instead (or maybe trade lvl1 Focus Attack) then it should allow me to connect MP super and test ultra. I'll also test EX headbutt xx super for you. But give me a couple of days please.

There's no rush of course, realsitically it's not going to help anyone knowing that Super won't hit after one hit of hands -> EX Buttslam -> EX headbutt -> Super

But cheers

- I should be working on the start of the video for this.

If you're still looking for an alternative name for hard knock down how about spike knock down (as in a volleyball spike)?

Mienaikage wrote:If you're still looking for an alternative name for hard knock down how about spike knock down (as in a volleyball spike)?

I've changed the naming convention to

HKD - Techable hard knock down

HKD+ - Untechable Knockdown

& spike knock down in acronym makes SKD... which is taken

You could call Untechable knockdown "sweep knockdown"... Oh, wait....

Doopliss wrote:You could call Untechable knockdown "sweep knockdown"... Oh, wait....

SNAPZ


Either way i'm half way through the video now... Looks like it's gonna be 10 + minutes.


I swear i've never put so much effort in to a video before... & Ulead crashed on me... the one time i didn't save (I usually save every 30 secs)

The video is ready

If anyone wishes to check it to see if it's clearly understandable & the subs arn't to annoying. I have my reservations about it, but hopefully it explains the notation, which is the key result i'm looking for. It was meant to go further in depth explaining things like Kens Tatsu's & Dudleys Dash upper (Second hit) however Ulead crashed on me several times so i agve up/

- There is some audio & video issues around the end, i've sorted them out in the final cut.

- I can't do anything about the wierd audio in the Gouken clip.

- do people think i should keep the notation for the final sections? or do they think it's better without.

Man, i can tell you put a lot of work into this but it's really hard to follow. Even knowing almost everything in the video, i found it very difficult to keep up. The fact that you cross out all the information when an attack connects means you can't refer back to it either.

I don't see how anyone can watch this without a massive amount of rewinding and possibly slow motion. (Maybe including slow motion replays within your video would help? Though if you flat out don't care about forcing people to rewatch your video, i guess that's okay.)

In terms of the info itself, i still have an objection to using "Juggle Point" and "Juggle Potential" as different terms with the same acronym. Everything that you have listed as listed as "Juggle Potential" seems fine, but the way you define "Juggle Point" still doesn't feel right to me. I can see why you took that approach but it seems unnecessarily complicated.

It's just ... i'd love to adopt your labeling system, but i make a lot of videos with multiple games. So if i'm going back and forth between explaining ST, SFA, CvS, and SF4 combos in one transcript, i can't switch between different numbering systems when they're essentially describing the same rules. It would cause way more confusion than it's worth, right?

(Again, if you don't care how i feel, that's totally okay. I'm just trying explain why i'm hesitant to jump on the bandwagon. For the record, i still hate the way SF4 frame data lists startup values, so i always go out of my way to write out "hits on the Nth frame" instead of writing "has N startup.")

Also how did you figure out that the last hits of a super fireball have higher juggle potential than the first hits? To me it seems like the intuitive explanation would be that all hits have the same juggle potential, so once your juggle count surpasses that juggle potential, the remaining hits stop connecting. I mean it seems really bizarre to me when you say that the first 2 hits of Ryu's super FB are whiffing while the last 3 hits are connecting. The way i see it, the last 3 hits don't even exist until the first 2 hits connect.

Lastly, you say that it's possible to hit someone after Ryu's super/ultra if you use a move with infinite juggle potential. How did you test this?

Yes, I'm sad to say that I had to jump back several times to understand some things. So I don't understand how the average Joe could learn from all this. It looks a lot like my juggle video, but that one was directed towards the creator of that thread. However, I liked how you described the stuff, the main problem was the extremely high pace during the combos.

And I have also thought the same things Maj has about fireballs that loses a proportionate number of hits when juggling, that all the hits have the same JP.

Maj wrote:Lastly, you say that it's possible to hit someone after Ryu's super/ultra if you use a move with infinite juggle potential. How did you test this?

I don't think that's possible, because no character with a "removes all juggle potential" move has a JPX move.

If we can't test it, then wouldn't it be simpler to say that the last hit of Ryu's super/ultra FB renders grounded opponents completely invincible? That would've been my first guess anyway.

Btw i don't think you ever mentioned Dhalsim in the video but his name is misspelled as "Dahlsim" in the first post.

I had my worries that it would be to confusing, however i don't know how to simplify what is in all sense just a massive amountof notation. No one wants to looks at

JP0 - Stun - SKD
JP1 - SKD -SKD
JP2 - SKD - SKD

& suddenly know it's Akumas HP SRK... But realistically, who saw Frame data for the first time & grasped it all in 10 mins?

In terms of the info itself, i still have an objection to using "Juggle Point" and "Juggle Potential" as different terms with the same acronym. Everything that you have listed as listed as "Juggle Potential" seems fine, but the way you define "Juggle Point" still doesn't feel right to me. I can see why you took that approach but it seems unnecessarily complicated.

I didn't realise that multiple games followed the same system of juggling, ignorance on my part. That said the only time i use the term "Juggle Potential" is in the case of complete removal (No potencial for juggle) JP ALWAYS means Juggle point.

The move has Juggle point 1
The opponent is in Juggle point 1

So long as the number is the same - or above - it will hit, i don't get how that's confusing... But then... I wouldn't seeing as i get it

The fact that you cross out all the information when an attack connects means you can't refer back to it either.

I cross out what doesn't hit. Idid this so that if someone wanted to pause after a combo to get a full grasp of the final outcome. they can. It's why i made all complete whiffs blue. Trying to make it assimple as possible (& failing by the sounds of it )

I'll admit i made this with the intention of people taking second glances, which is why i tried to add enough info that people could stop/start. the way i saw it... The thread would go hand in hand with the video... You couldn't just watch the video & that would fill you up with all the knowledge you needed regarding Juggling, the video is more of a supplement.

Also how did you figure out that the last hits of a super fireball have higher juggle potential than the first hits? To me it seems like the intuitive explanation would be that all hits have the same juggle potential, so once your juggle count surpasses that juggle potential, the remaining hits stop connecting. I mean it seems really bizarre to me when you say that the first 2 hits of Ryu's super FB are whiffing while the last 3 hits are connecting. The way i see it, the last 3 hits don't even exist until the first 2 hits connect.

The final hits of Ryu's Super/Ultra do more damage than the initial hits, this is also true with many characters projectiles when only part of the projectile connects it always results in the final hit coming out. My overall confirmation with this is Goukens Denjin... Only the final hit causes wall bounce & you can wangle a combo out that results in an uncharged Denjin that causes one hit... & that one hit causes wall bounce.

Doopliss wrote:

Maj wrote:Lastly, you say that it's possible to hit someone after Ryu's super/ultra if you use a move with infinite juggle potential. How did you test this?

I don't think that's possible, because no character with a "removes all juggle potential" move has a JPX move.

Rose has one... (Aura Spark & Soul Sat) So does Sagat. (Tiger Canon/Super) I did intend to display Rose's directly after the final Ryu vid. However Ulead cocked up & i omitted it. The reason i tied this in with other moves (Cody's Zonk, Ryu's Super/Ultra) is because i didn't want to add random footnotes for 7 different attacks when they can all be collectively termed (Without mattering if it's wrong or not unless someone hacks the game to disprove that a JPX move won't hit after Ryu's grounded ultra then it still stands true... Whether it is true or not is irrelevant, you'd have to break the game to disprove it)

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I'll take a look, slow motion is a good idea, i mean there is a hell of alot to keep track of in this, but if i paused or dissected every combo we're looking at a 20 min vid. Slow motion sounds like a good idea.

Btw i don't think you ever mentioned Dhalsim in the video but his name is misspelled as "Dahlsim" in the first post.

Trust me that won't be the only spelling error in the first post i can tell you, i'll get to the spelling when i sort it for SRK.

Pokey86 wrote:

Doopliss wrote:

Maj wrote:Lastly, you say that it's possible to hit someone after Ryu's super/ultra if you use a move with infinite juggle potential. How did you test this?

I don't think that's possible, because no character with a "removes all juggle potential" move has a JPX move.

Rose has one... (Aura Spark & Soul Sat) So does Sagat. (Tiger Canon/Super) I did intend to display Rose's directly after the final Ryu vid. However Ulead cocked up & i omitted it.

I admit I rushed it and just ctrl+F'd for "remove" to see which ones had that ability, and then quickly checked if they had anything JPX XD But yeah, you need to show that kind of stuff. A good way would be to remove all but one hit from Sagats Ultra 2, then do EX low tiger shot or something, then you show it with the Super after a full Ultra.

I admit I rushed it and just ctrl+F'd for "remove" to see which ones had that ability, and then quickly checked if they had anything JPX XD But yeah, you need to show that kind of stuff. A good way would be to remove all but one hit from Sagats Ultra 2, then do EX low tiger shot or something, then you show it with the Super after a full Ultra.

Which is a nice idea... but is it necessary to the video... i mean i was going to add Dudleys whole Dash upper enigma.

Dash upper = Causes SKD on airborne

Adds two juggle points on a juggled opponent.

But then, it states this in the notation for Dudley, explaining EVERYTHING regarding juggling in the video isn't the intention, at one point people watching this are actively going to have to go & mess around with characters. I don't think i have to show people that Roses Soul Satellite will hit before they actively try it or believe it can.

Pokey86 wrote:I didn't realise that multiple games followed the same system of juggling, ignorance on my part. That said the only time i use the term "Juggle Potential" is in the case of complete removal (No potencial for juggle) JP ALWAYS means Juggle point.

Oh okay. In that case it's better to avoid using "Juggle Potential" at all, because it's currently in a few places in the video (5:12, 7:09, etc.)

So long as the number is the same - or above - it will hit, i don't get how that's confusing... But then... I wouldn't seeing as i get it :P

It's confusing because in CvS, we say if the juggle count is at 3, you need something with a juggle potential of 4 or more to connect. So if i have a CvS2 juggle combo followed by an SSF4 juggle combo in a video, i'm going to have a problem trying to figure out how to explain them without confusing the hell out of people. So if you see me sticking to my system, it's not that i don't like your system - it's that i have to maintain consistency.

I cross out what doesn't hit.

I meant replacing all the info with X's when a hit connects. It's very confusing. If you don't think we need that info, you should probably write that somewhere in the beginning. Something like: "Throughout this video, i'll cross out irrelevant information on a hit-by-hit basis as each combo unfolds. In the end, only the data which applies to that specific combo will remain. Trust me."

Also it wouldn't hurt to have a small diagram at the very beginning which explains each of your three parts. Like when you freeze on "JP0 - Stun - RESET" at 1:28, you should have an arrow pointing to "JP0" that says "juggle data" and an arrow that points to "Stun" that says "ground hit result" or whatever and an arrow that points to "RESET" that says "air hit result" or whatever.

Btw i hate the word "Stun" too but that's hella not your fault. That stupid word means everything. I hate Capcom for confusing stun and dizzy. It's almost as bad as referring to parrying as "blocking" in Japanese versions of SF3/CvS. Although the more i think about it, the more it seems like "Hitstun" would be much more clear than "Stun" in this case.

Pokey86 wrote:Which is a nice idea... but is it necessary to the video...

I'm with Doopliss on this one. Juggling after those projectile supers/ultras is a big enough question that it needs to be shown in the video, especially since it would only take 10 seconds to demonstrate. The Dudley thing is nowhere near as glaring.

Btw whenever this is all done, if you want it posted as a guest article on SH, that'd be really cool. I'll just add a brief comment afterwards about our differences in numbering conventions, but that won't stop me from referring to this because otherwise it's is all really solid info. And it's 100% your call. Don't be afraid to say no for whatever reason. You don't have to explain it.

Oh and this is a minor note regarding the video's credits (thanks btw), but i prefer "Maj" over "Majestros" by a large margin. I mean it doesn't bother me or anything, but if i have a choice, it's "Maj" for sure.

Hmm if i'd have known before that Kich's naming convention was actually based off of previous games naming conventions i'd have stuck with it. I mean though i find my style considerably easier to understand (As you can simply work out the characters juggle point, then deduct the attack, if you hit 0 or or less it'll hit) but for the sake of continuity for the older players as well as future games i prefer to keep things flowing with a known system.

I'll work on incorperating Kich's convention in to the video... It'll be WAYYYYY to much work for me to re-establish the video, but i'll try & work around the current cuts & pauses.

I meant replacing all the info with X's when a hit connects. It's very confusing. If you don't think we need that info,

Why would you need the info... it didn't hit, i originally wanted to alter the colour of only the sections that hit, however doing it in this way was going to cause me double the work (& the work was already pretty time consuming) so i opted for an easier option. My main intention for crossing it off is because i think it's important people understand when something is hitting air rather than leaving it ambiguous, for example the transition in the final Ryu combo it is important that people understand that only because the Tatsu turned the combo in to air hits that the Shinku was capable of hitting.

Also it wouldn't hurt to have a small diagram at the very beginning which explains each of your three parts. Like when you freeze on "JP0 - Stun - RESET" at 1:28, you should have an arrow pointing to "JP0" that says "juggle data" and an arrow that points to "Stun" that says "ground hit result" or whatever and an arrow that points to "RESET" that says "air hit result" or whatever.

I did three specific sections in the opening video (Cammy VS Dan, the three clips before that where some intro clips) in which i faded out 2 of the 3 sections & defined the section that wasn't faded out. I thought this looked pretty solid... But in truth, it's so had to make a proper judgement of your own work. Well i find that anyway

Btw i hate the word "Stun" too but that's hella not your fault.

Well you haven't got a prayer of me changing that But for future reference, whats a better word for stun? Keep in mind the majority of this all is notation, so i don't really want 7 characters defining something that could be defined in 3... Float to me was long enough.

I'm with Doopliss on this one. Juggling after those projectile supers/ultras is a big enough question that it needs to be shown in the video, especially since it would only take 10 seconds to demonstrate. The Dudley thing is nowhere near as glaring.

I have a decent set up for Rose that i'll use, i'll add it to the video.

---

I'm in no rush to get this out ASAP, i'll put a bit more time in to the vid & see if it can be made a bit simpler. Though i personally think this is never going to be a "Watch once to understand" kinda thing.

& no problem, i'd be glad to have an article on SH, & i'll of course change it to Maj

Pokey86 wrote:Why would you need the info...

That's the thing, it took me nearly 5 minutes to figure out that i didn't need the info you were crossing out. By then half the video had gone by. It sounds dumb, but saying "Trust me, i'm only crossing out the info that doesn't apply to each combo" helps a lot.

I did three specific sections in the opening video (Cammy VS Dan, the three clips before that where some intro clips) in which i faded out 2 of the 3 sections & defined the section that wasn't faded out. I thought this looked pretty solid... But in truth, it's so had to make a proper judgement of your own work. Well i find that anyway

I'm not saying take that out. That stuff is fine. But the whole rest of the video hinges on people having a clear understanding of what those triplets mean, so it really wouldn't hurt to repeat that info all at once with as few words as possible. And arrows.

But for future reference, whats a better word for stun?

Hm, hitstun is the only thing i can think of right now. Or at least the shortest thing that would be a significant improvement. I mean there's always stuff like "ground hit" but that's even longer. Anyway people will get used to "Stun" if you make it clear enough in the key, even though it might look ambiguous at first sight. Anyway like i said, it's Capcom's fault. Guess we just have to deal with it.

OK heres the updated version


I've added some lengthy explenations at the beginning, also added a Rose combo at the end that displays the removal unjuggle-able hitting thing.

I haven't added slowdown, personally i don't know when is a good time to slow down the game, unless i do a complete slow down of all combos by 20% or something, but i just can't think of where to "select" what slows down & what goes as normal.

Also i've decided to keep this style of notation rather than go to Kich's old style, i tried to think of ways of explaining it & it all just seemed to come out a mess to me (JP-1 = Float, or no JP difit for float at all,to work out of sa move is gonna hit add 1 to the current juggle counter etc etc.)

That said when i put this all up on SRK i'll add a FAQ & incorperate a question relating to the old style so people who dounderstand it that way are being addressed.

Any less confusing?

Man, i don't know what to say. That's one intense gamble is what that is. I mean if someone bothers to read all that, you're in pretty good shape for the rest of the video. They'll know what to watch for and probably won't get overwhelmed.

But i have a feeling a LOT of people are going to skim past that wall of text or even fast forwarding to gameplay. Those guys are goners. They'll be absolutely lost and confused, so then your only hope is that they'll rewind to the beginning instead of closing the window.

Probably the only alternative is to double the length of the video and spread out the info so it shows up in tiny bits. But at this point, you're basically done with this video so you may as well just put the finishing touches on it and see what happens. If everyone likes it, then you're set. If everyone hates it, then you'll have motivation to work on the kindergarden remake. Either way, good luck.

Maj wrote:Man, i don't know what to say. That's one intense gamble is what that is. I mean if someone bothers to read all that, you're in pretty good shape for the rest of the video. They'll know what to watch for and probably won't get overwhelmed.

But i have a feeling a LOT of people are going to skim past that wall of text or even fast forwarding to gameplay. Those guys are goners. They'll be absolutely lost and confused, so then your only hope is that they'll rewind to the beginning instead of closing the window.

Probably the only alternative is to double the length of the video and spread out the info so it shows up in tiny bits. But at this point, you're basically done with this video so you may as well just put the finishing touches on it and see what happens. If everyone likes it, then you're set. If everyone hates it, then you'll have motivation to work on the kindergarden remake. Either way, good luck.

Yeah... At this point i just don't know what else i can do besides a few slowdowns, whether that will help i haven't got a clue. To much info in to fast a time... funny when the idea came to add notation in realtime with combos i was like. "Man that would make it so easy to follow"


*Crashes*

*Burns*


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We'll see eh people can skip the video anyway.