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teleport won't work as a counterhit, though

Neither of those work. Teleport isn't an attack so it never sets up counterhit, and EX kicks is invincible for its entire startup so it's totally impossible to get counterhit against it. Same goes for EX SPD and all of his uppercuts. That's why i had to go through all that trouble of building up meter for Ken F+HK meaty setup. Creating a point blank range counterhit against Seth isn't trivial.

Anyway KKK:c.HP causes waaay too much pushback. I got counterhit KKK:c.HP, PPP:s.MK xx HP super, PPP ultra to connect using a basic knockdown wakeup reversal counterhit setup, but it's only 727 damage. (That's an approximate number, since the 16 damage from LP hands must have thrown off the lifebar scaling a little bit.)

It's actually kinda funny doing Gen's KKK:c.HP against Gouken's FB charge. Normally Gen pushes the opponent away even before the attack connects, but he can't push Gouken during that charging animation, so he ends up pushing himself backward. Unless Gouken backs Gen into the corner, in which case Gen pushes himself backward but the corner holds him so he ends up pushing Gouken. Roundabout circular logic. Works with Rufus' c.HP too.

I had no idea EX legs was that good, I should use it more when people jump me during wake-up.

I thought I was the only one who knew zangief and dhalsim could fadc before the active frame

Doopliss wrote:I had no idea EX legs was that good, I should use it more when people jump me during wake-up.

No it's not good. It has a super long start up so it's easy to safe jump on. You better off with a srk, less start up and much more damage. A jab srk does more damage is quicker and is safer on block.

Maj wrote:Haha thanks.

Man, i really need a better counterhit trade setup for Seth. Fireball hitstun takes too long. I think Gen could actually kill Seth if you could combo counterhit KKK-style c.HP (trade), HP super, PPP ultra, but Gen doesn't recover fast enough to combo that super after trading with a Sonic Boom. There isn't even enough time to do s.MK which is 1 frame faster.

Although ... looking at the frame data, it might be possible to just do counterhit meaty KKK:c.HP, HP super. Hmm ...

I'm almost positive one of the replies to you do 700 damage challenge was justthat combo... i couldbe wrong.

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Also since your gouken video i've been playing about with him, having some fun in training mode & i had no idea but he can go 0 to stun on Balrog & total for about 800 damage. if i knew that, that'd have been in the 09'er video

You mean this one? It's easy without counterhit.

Btw in case anyone was wondering, you can get a meaty counterhit if someone does a wakeup normal move. It's not that surprising because there's nothing inherently special about reversals, but obviously you need 1 frame timing if you use a normal move whereas you have a huge reversal window if you use special moves. But yeah, it's kinda useful if you ever need a meaty counterhit setup against a crouching opponent. For instance Gen's KKK:c.HP causes slightly less pushback against a crouching opponent, but still not enough to combo PPP:s.HP or HP super unfortunately.

Wait it's easier without counterhit, does that even make sense? Doesn't CH increase frames of stun? how can it be harder?

Without counterhit, you can trade with a jab. With counterhit, you have to trade with a projectile. That's a downgrade in frame advantage.

Oh yeah, duh >_<

error1 wrote:I thought I was the only one who knew zangief and dhalsim could fadc before the active frame

Doopliss wrote:I had no idea EX legs was that good, I should use it more when people jump me during wake-up.

No it's not good. It has a super long start up so it's easy to safe jump on. You better off with a srk, less start up and much more damage. A jab srk does more damage is quicker and is safer on block.

I dunno, I have catched a lot of people with it when I have failed Teleport inputs XD And LP SRK has like 0 invincibility?

Doopliss wrote: I dunno, I have catched a lot of people with it when I have failed Teleport inputs XD And LP SRK has like 0 invincibility?

they all have 7 frames of invincibility, more then most srks, but the ex version has 22, much more then ex legs

Weird, because I have never beaten anything with reversal LP SRK. I only use HP SRK for that nowadays.

Gen can only cancel the first hit of hands, right? Just making sure that i'm not making a huge mistake here.

yes, only the first hit. That's what makes his hard challenge so hard

Okay cool. I'm like one and a half combos away from being done, so i'll either get it uploaded very late tonight or early tomorow.

Ostensibly, you could also get a meaty hit against an opponent who's falling in, but I doubt there's any benefit over a waking opponent. I really don't know anything about SF4, but in HDR/Super Turbo, it's also possible to get meaty hits by 'bouncing' off the walls - though that's primarily for special moves.

"Without counterhit, you can trade with a jab. With counterhit, you have to trade with a projectile. That's a downgrade in frame advantage."
You can't trade with both in SF4, right?

Yes you can, but you can't get both counterhit and trade without a projectile.

Maj says you can get a counter hit trade vs rose far lk. In the Gouken combo here Seth get's a counter hit trade for some reason http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NadAipFN6_A#t=27s
I'm sure there are other ways to do it but maj couldn't find one vs Seth

Yeah I know, what I said is more like a rule of thumb. Rules have exeptions :3

error1 wrote:yes, only the first hit. That's what makes his hard challenge so hard

lol,work around my friend, HP Hands -> MK -> super


Gens MK is fantastic his MP is brilliant to

s.MP -> MP Hands xx super is easier.

Doopliss wrote:s.MP -> MP Hands xx super is easier.

I'm talking about his hard trial 5:P

Cancelling his Super arfter the Crouch LP -> MP -> Hands combination is rock hard the MK gives you a bit of leeway, just do half the super in the MK

I was also talking about hard 5. "c.LP -> s.MP -> MP Hands xx super" is an easy way to do it.

Gens MK is fantastic his MP is brilliant to...

Gen is fantastic!
For me, Gen is a great option in a real vs, only his bad wake up can be a handicap (you can still do EX oga, but not 100% safe) I presume that the "advanced" combos of Gen are the reason for his poor popularity. I dont remember a vid showing a good shorcuts for Gen, like 2HQF and MK->P for MK-> Super, or HQF PPP-> HQF P for Super after cLK (KKK style). The "piano" system is a very popular vid in Youtube, but I havent seen a good vid with all inside. I usually dont have troubles agaisnt Ryus, Sagats Akumas or Zangiefs, Gen has a lot of tricks agaist zoning, or turtle opponents.
Well, only writing to make time while waiting the new TACV video, heheheh...

Sorry about the delay guys. Got stuck on one combo that i never should've let error1 bait me into doing, haha. Anyway it's all recorded now so i'ma edit it before i go to sleep. Should be uploaded in 2-3 hours, for reals this time.

Tigre III wrote:Gens MK is fantastic his MP is brilliant to...

Gen is fantastic!
For me, Gen is a great option in a real vs, only his bad wake up can be a handicap (you can still do EX oga, but not 100% safe) I presume that the "advanced" combos of Gen are the reason for his poor popularity. I dont remember a vid showing a good shorcuts for Gen, like 2HQF and MK->P for MK-> Super, or HQF PPP-> HQF P for Super after cLK (KKK style). The "piano" system is a very popular vid in Youtube, but I havent seen a good vid with all inside. I usually dont have troubles agaisnt Ryus, Sagats Akumas or Zangiefs, Gen has a lot of tricks agaist zoning, or turtle opponents.
Well, only writing to make time while waiting the new TACV video, heheheh...

EX Oga not safe? It's like the safest movement you can do in the game i don't think there is anything more relaiable on wake-up.

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Regaridng latest video:

That was ace, i moaned a while ago saying it's a shame Jyasen (Gens Roll) coudln't be FADC's... Noty surprising you work around it I also had no idea you could cancel the last hit in to Ultra, is that only for the LP version or can you do that on a HP Roll, that'd be a fantastic hit confirm in to Mantis Super, seeing as his Roll is safe on block. & also, did you prolong the Hands before you did MK hands again? I always thought you could only do the shortest activation if you wanted to combo from it.

Also, like the double hits during your chicken wings to scale stunning enough so that Seth would stun, i presume you was going for big numbers, i know that with all High punches that combo (Minus the extras you did) easily breaks 1,000 on the stun metre, but i'd guess if you did that on Abel you would have had to do less hits to get stun. & i was expecting at one point or another you'd hit two Focus's back to back, considering how fast his Focus actually is.

Also loved the second part of the Rose combo.

Pokey86 wrote:


EX Oga not safe? It's like the safest movement you can do in the game i don't think there is anything more relaiable on wake-up.

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Mmmm I cannot find one vid with nice options select against a lot of characters, but I remember one or two against EX oga. Maybe the cross EX Oga to down without kick is 100% safe... I dont know why, but I dont remember this movement 100% safe...LOL

The vid is great, the Gen combo using the Dhalsim´s Ultra is very creative. The trade set up to connect Oga was very nice, Im surprissed Maj not connect first the jHK (KKK style) and then Ultra, maybe dont work in this case?
The Fei Long combos are great too, nice work.

It'd be kind of interesting to see a fireball interrupt during an ultra that somehow built enough meter for.. another ultra.

Tigre III wrote:Im surprissed Maj not connect first the jHK (KKK style) and then Ultra, maybe dont work in this case?

Nope, it doesn't work, for the same reason you can't do j.MP (land) -> j.MP -> s.HK with M.Bison.

Ah, ok, thanks Doopliss.