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Dammit wrote:jump on frame : air normal on frame : ground normal on frame
0 : 5 : 33
1 : 6 : 34
2 : 6 : 35
3 : 8 : 36
4 : 9 : 37
5 : 9 : 38

The startup for a jump takes 3 frames in 1 out of 3 cases, and 4 frames otherwise. The duration of the jump does not vary.

Well, if the frameskip pattern is consistent, then it's skipping every 4th frame or every 5th frame or whatever. (If you figure out the exact number, please let us know).

Let's say it's skipping every 5th frame. Then a true 3-frame move would sometimes occur in 3 turbo-speed frames and sometimes in 2 turbo-speed frames, depending on whether the skipped frame fell inside or outside of that 3-frame period.

However, a 15-frame move would always occur in 12 turbo-speed frames because:

If the 1st true frame gets skipped, then so do the 6th and 11th frames = 12 turbo-speed frames.
However, the 1st frame usually can't happen on a skipped frame because you don't have input access to that frame, unless you buffer it somehow.

If the 2nd true frame gets skipped, then so do the 7th and 12th frames = 12 turbo-speed frames.
If the 3rd true frame gets skipped, then so do the 8th and 13th frames = 12 turbo-speed frames.
If the 4th true frame gets skipped, then so do the 9th and 14th frames = 12 turbo-speed frames.
If the 5th true frame gets skipped, then so do the 10th and 15th frames = 12 turbo-speed frames.

Therefore, any true 15-frame move would always have the same frame count (of 12 frames) at 1/5F turbo speed. Even a true 16-frame move would usually have the same frame count (of 13 frames) at 1/5F turbo speed because there's no way to get the 1/6/11/16 combo without buffering the move into a dash or into jump landing recovery or something along those lines, depending on the game.

However, all true 12-frame, 13-frame, and 14-frame moves would fluctuate, turn into 9/10 turbo-speed frames or 10/11, or 11/12 respectively. You could even determine the likelyhood of getting the lesser number or the greater number by looking at the possibility chart above.

With respect to combos, generally the worst thing that can happen is for the frame after the move to get skipped. That's why moves whose true frame counts are integer multiples of your frameskip rate are your best friends. A true 15-frame move will never skip the 16th frame (the frame after recovery).

Xenozip. wrote:But did you try d, db, b, then u, then P?

Pressing P so soon, it always comes out on the ground. But leaving 3 null frames between u and P also results in the varying levels.

Xenozip. wrote:There is a minimum height in which you can do things, like airdash. Though this minimum does not apply to other characters like Q-B and Jedah. Everything regarding air-anything is all character specific AFAIK.

Interesting example is Demitri's drillkick can be started at any height, but his air fireball requires a lot of height. (It can still hit standing Anak tho.)

Morrigan's HP shadowblade is inputted and then counting begins. Ability to jump is returned on frame:
normal : 60
turbo 1: 48 or 49
turbo 2: 46 or 47
turbo 3: 44 or 45

Following your model, Maj, we can deduce:
Skip every 4th would result in 60*(1-1/4)=45 --> 44 to 45
Skip every 5th would result in 60*(1-1/5)=48 --> 47 to 48
Skip every 6th would result in 60*(1-1/6)=50 --> 49 to 50

Therefore:
Turbo 3 skips every 4th frame. (That's a lot of stuff to throw away!)
Turbo 2 skips less than every 4th but more than every 5th.
Turbo 1 is less than every 5th but more than every 6th.

Perhaps turbo 1 alternates between skipping the 5th and 6th and turbo 2 goes between the 4th and 5th. If ram search were working I could devise better experiments and get more precise results.

Wow, Turbo 1 and Turbo 2 seem like hell. Maybe they're skipping every 4th frame and then an extra frame at another interval. I mean, the advantage with that kind of chaos is that maybe you can play with gaps until you find the right configuration for each combo. But the disadvantage is that every time you move your combo forward or backward one frame, all the numbers change in crazy unpredictable ways.

Anyway this is all academic. Maybe my numbers are off too, since i only came up with them in 20 minutes while writing that post. In all these years, nobody has needed to factor this info into their combos. Frame data will tell you what's possible and you can usually make it work quickly through trial and error. It takes a lot to find an impossible combo, especially in games with flexible systems like chain buffering.

If you actually do run into several impossible combos, changing to normal speed might be worth considering. It would make your life way, way easier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83NRxtN1Y9Y

Gallon combo that starts around 0:19 and ends in a juggle that I've never seen before. It appears to be console though so I dunno if that has anything to do with it. I wonder if that juggle could cross the screen, it would look like an A3 V-combo.

About turbo frameskip, could that be why some of my FBA-RR replays desync at the same spot? Some of the replays I've made in MSH/MSHvSF only sync up every 3rd or 4th try, and I've never had that problem with COTA (which doesn't have turbo in arcade).

no fba-rr should be deterministic and should take things like random frameskip into account. I've never had any problems MSHvSF but the combos I did where not possible with turbo on so there could be something to it.

Yup, we determined that the emulator is deterministic, so the same input sequence will always get the same result... IF it's started on the same frame.

If it's on turbo speed and the players are standing there idling and you start the input sequence on any old frame, you will get variable results thanks to frameskip. You can eliminate this by starting from a savestate (or from power-on).

Thanks for that link. There are so few juggles in this game I want to try to include as many as I can. I'll study it closer when I get a chance.

BTW, what the hell is happening at 0:35? Final Werewolf Justice? I need to get my digital hands on the Saturn version sometime.

Ok, I've definitely never seen the DF juggle at the end of this match http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aZsAzZ6su4

That was pretty cool. She could probably do it off a hcb+p command grab too.

Nice one. It only took one stock too. Her fireball is a great combo tool.

I was thinking of following her ES command throw with a flawless Puppet Show. Shouldn't be hard, but that's already 3 meter right there.

I dunno bout that. But, "interesting" trivia regarding both topics: her DF copies her puppet show tophat toss. So if you do the delayed shadow one, her second tophat can also hit. Would definitely be flashy/styling is you could incorporate the second tophat into a combo.

Still holding my breath for this project.

But I can't hold it in forever, so I hope to hear a status report.

Also, there is now a wiki for this game up on mizuumi: http://vsav.mizuumi.net/index.php/Main_Page

And guess who has been going hog wild over there. Yeah the character sections are empty at the time of this post (cept Lilith and Victor) but that's going to change very soon. Next couple bitches queued for the chopping block are Q-Bee and Lei-Lei. Though that's sort of irrelevant here anyway, the main attraction is the esoterica.

That looks great, and I won't need a dictionary to read it either. It looks like you are doing most of the work yourself too.

Once I complete my ridiculous self-training regimen things will get rolling.

It's been updated a lot and I'm not the only one working on it now. Not totally complete (yet) though.

So there is juggle potential stuff going on here. Is there a good introduction to that somewhere? In these demos, the second gyro only connects if it's HP or ES. (The LP and MP have the same startup but whiff.) Furthermore, if done in VH2's bastardized Dark Force mode, the hits of the second ES gyro that do connect are different.
http://www.mediafire.com/?tnitw3nmmxd

Maybe VS2/VH2 Dark Force is the key to awesome juggles?

* Victor:

c.LP c.LP, +c.MP, normally c.LP to c.MP is an impossible link but becomes possible with the renda bonus, this allows him to hitconfirm the c.MP into a special move for a BNB.

That's cool but what are you supposed to do with the c.MP? He can only cancel lights.

However, all moves can be special/super canceled within the first few frames of the move, regardless of it's cancelability, which includes air moves. For example, even though Lei-Lei's HK is not special cancelable and can not be whiff canceled mid-way through the move, the first couple frames of the move can be canceled.

That's gonna help a lot in building meter fast. I never noticed it before because you only get a 2 frame window.

Unfortunately I don't know a thing about juggles. Things like Lilith's Dark Force show that you can juggle Soul Flash indefinitely but only her shadow can juggle with anything (and everything) else. So it's kind of like Gouken with infinite juggle potential on fireballs. But I never really put much time/thought into it, sorry.

Also that Victor thing is a bad example, sorry again. I need to fix that on the wiki. A better example would be with Lei-Lei c.LP not being able to link into c.MK, but c.LP c.LP +c.MK is valid and cancelable since it's a link rather than a chain, and requires the renda bonus in order to link. Though even in her case it becomes a moot point if you link from c.LK to c.MK instead, using c.LP is just a trivial matter.

Though, I think the renda bonus simply make it easier to link to mids for most characters rather being the deciding factor between possible/impossible. I'm sure there must be a few exceptions, it's just really esoteric/trivial information. The renda bonus for Victor is more useful in the sense that c.LP won't combo into his headbutt, but c.LP c.LP will, just like how Zabel's c.LP doesn't combo into his elbow super, but c.LP c.LP will. But If I find any better uses of renda bonus linking I'll post them up.

Sorry, are those two Victor clips from the same game? Sadly i'm not familiar enough with the series to tell.

And since i'm being scrubby and asking, can someone please explain how many of these games there were? It seems like all the American and Japanese ones use different titles, and it's not clear if there are any major differences beyond that. Is this correct?

Darkstalkers: The Night Warriors (US) = Vampire: The Night Warriors (JP)
Night Warriors: Darkstalkers' Revenge (US) = Vampire Hunter: Darkstalkers' Revenge (JP)
Darkstalkers 3 (US) = Vampire Savior: The Lord of Vampire (JP)

I don't really understand where VH2 and VS2 fit in.

It looks like VH2's juggle system is a mix of ST and SFA/A2. Basically every move has an assigned juggle potential. If you knock someone down, for example by hitting them out of the air with a special move, they become totally invincible, just like in ST.

However, if you knock them down with a move that has juggle potential, then they get put into a special jugglable knockdown state where moves with juggle potential can still hit them. Of course, almost every move has zero juggle potential so most attacks whiff.

An attack with a juggle potential of one will hit once after such a knockdown. An attack with juggle potential of two will hit twice after such a knockdown, and so on. Most ES moves and supers have some juggle potential.

For example, Morrigan's ES DP has a juggle potential of 7. Normally the first hit knocks down and the next seven hits juggle. You can also have it hit the cornered opponent at the top of their jump so that it only connects four times, then do a second ES DP to juggle four more hits.

It seems like there's an extra somewhat-aribitrary limitation too. If you hit someone with Morrigan's ES fireball, you have a very short period of time to juggle with ES DP (for five extra hits since the first hit of ES FB knocks down) before they become invulnerable. It happens right around the top of their knockdown arc, like in A1/A2.

Testing midscreen using Morrigan vs Victor, you can have Morrigan's ES fireball hit Victor's whiff s.MK and if the first fireball hit connects far enough away, Victor becomes invincible before the rest of it catches up. If you wait a little longer to press s.MK, the last two hits of the fireball will juggle with a tiny gap after the first hit. I'm not sure if this only applies to projectiles or what.

Victor's ES lariat works the same way as Morrigan's ES DP, although i can't tell how much juggle potential it has beyond "2 or more." Though it might actually be two, because if you do a third ES lariat, it whiffs completely.

Btw in your first clip, if you wait a little longer before doing that second ES lariat after the first one knocks down, you can get the same hit pattern as you got in the second clip. That first pattern happens because the last hit of the first ES lariat hits meaty, which allows you to start the second ES lariat while the opponent is slightly higher. If you hold forward to bring Victor closer during the first ES lariat, the last hit will connect sooner, the opponent will drop sooner, and the second ES lariat will connect with the first two hits instead of the first and last.

Otherwise i have no clue what's going on in DF mode. It could be possible that they made his fist hitboxes bigger so the second hit of the second lariat doesn't whiff like it would normally. Anyway please double-check all of this with different characters before accepting it because i only tested with two. Maybe i just ran into a bunch of exceptions.

Maj wrote:I don't really understand where VH2 and VS2 fit in.

They don't, really. They came out the same year as VSav in Jap arcades only. VS2 is just VSav plus OBishamon, the weird Dark Force and a messed up palette. VH2 has VH characters with the VS2 mechanics. You have to play the home versions to get all chars in one game because of not enough CPS2 memory or something.

There were basically 3 games: Vampire, Hunter and Savior, with different lineups and gameplay between them. Savior got ports on PSX, Saturn, Dreamcast, PSP and PS2 of varying names and quality. Only the overseas PSX port was formally named Darkstalkers 3. I do suspect the frame data was made more liberal for the home versions.

Maj wrote:if you wait a little longer before doing that second ES lariat after the first one knocks down, you can get the same hit pattern as you got in the second clip

Ugh, how could I miss that. Thanks for pointing it out. Well, DF lets you air chain, does red damage, and upgrades some EX supers. Hopefully that's all I have to worry about.

Your explanation got me thinking there's a juggle counter hidden in there somewhere, and... there is. (I put together a shitty Lua script for memsearch because the builtin utility is broken.) If you use a cheat to force this value at 0, the victim can be juggled indefinitely. I know your stance on cheats but I couldn't resist once I saw how easy it is.
http://www.mediafire.com/?qugnkojyily

Anyways, that doesn't tell us what moves can do what but it's a piece of the puzzle.

What do you mean by a mix of ST and SFA/A2? Is it unlimited in A3?

Dammit wrote: What do you mean by a mix of ST and SFA/A2? Is it unlimited in A3?

In a3 the opponent doesn't become invincible when they start falling but they can do an air recovery when you become grounded. So there isn't an invisible juggle counter but most juggle combos can be recovered from unless you use crouch cancel.

ST and SFA/SFA2 share a common ground in that juggles adhere to a counter and each move has arbitrary/inherent juggle potential which determines when it can be used in juggle combos.

SFA/SFA2 have an extra limitation that you can only juggle opponents for the first part of their knockdown arc. In ST, you can juggle them all the way until they hit the ground. (Also, SFA1 Sodom happens to be exempt from this and stays vulnerable all the way down.)

ST has an extra limitation that you can only juggle opponents if the attack which caused the knockdown also had juggle potential. In SFA/SFA2, it doesn't matter what caused the knockdown.

SFA3 is a totally different beast residing in its own alternate reality. A3's combo system is much further from A1/A2 than A1/A2 are from ST.

Victor done, or a least a draft:
http://www.mediafire.com/?mdmwtnmqowm

I'm putting my daily work in a journal:
http://dammit.typepad.com/

You better damn believe this is a TAS.

lol, I'm not to familiar with this game but I really liked it. All those missed moves might look sloppy to some taser but they where obviously necessary for the meter. I'm not sure if your doing it but kara canceling a move in the first few frames builds extra meter. I liked the themes you choose If nothing else it gave me a chance to play along at home at try and guess what your themes where.

I liked it too. I thought you did a good job dancing with Phobos at 0:25 to mask the fact that you're just waiting for his lifebar to recover. What exactly happened with those exploding orbs at 0:29? Victor got stuck in Alpha Counter startup? Anyway the combo you did afterwards with the link in the middle was worth the wait.

The throw round was dope too, especially ending with the creepy one at the end. But one of my favorite moments in the whole thing is sweeping Phobos at 1:15 then using the OTG to jump over those orbs. Taunt kill was dope too.

Man, it's crazy how Capcom actually went through the trouble of drawing up a hidden random select character for Darkstalkers, complete with body snatching animation after each match.

Thanks.

error1 wrote:lol, I'm not to familiar with this game but I really liked it. All those missed moves might look sloppy to some taser but they where obviously necessary for the meter. I'm not sure if your doing it but kara canceling a move in the first few frames builds extra meter. I liked the themes you choose If nothing else it gave me a chance to play along at home at try and guess what your themes where.

Yeah, when you hear them yell before the special, you know it's being karaed. I wasn't expecting a whole spare bar by the end, so I used it for that last ES punch... it does like 4 more damage than the regular one.

Maj wrote:I liked it too. I thought you did a good job dancing with Phobos at 0:25 to mask the fact that you're just waiting for his lifebar to recover. What exactly happened with those exploding orbs at 0:29? Victor got stuck in Alpha Counter startup? Anyway the combo you did afterwards with the link in the middle was worth the wait.

Ha, so you noticed the delay. Well I started pushblocking and thought I could get the Tech Hit announcement over and over. Didn't happen, but I kept mashing anyway, and then GCed at the last moment. I guess it does look kind of funny.

Cool start. Also interesting reading your blog notes, thanks for that.

I know it's a TA "speedrun" but I hope you can find a way to add an increasing amount of wackiness to keep it entertaining rather than having it be a full-roster beatdown.

I'm open to any suggestions. It'll be some time before I get to the matches farther down the list tho.

Nah it looks like you have it well under control. Like I said before my only suggestion is to avoid monotony and total-beat-downs, because then it just looks like you're playing normally. IMO if you're doing tool assistance it should show off the capabilities of the tools to the extreme; like being psychic and being random, not just being perfect killing machine.

I want to steal your new blog entry for the wiki, lol.

Cool go right ahead. You probably want to refine the commentary though.


Looks like they won't let me link to css files or use <style> tags for free, so the tables are gonna be plain jane.

This isn't related to your TAS per se, but I was wondering about the properties of backwards reversals. As in, for example, if you airthrow with Felicia and the opponent techs it, can the opponent reversal or is it impossible?

It looks like yes. You mean this?

http://www.mediafire.com/file/jjyyfojdh ... everse.mkv