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Had 5 mins... Oni's air Demon is JP2

Yeah, I tried it after 3-hit air EX tatsu without success.

Doopliss wrote:Yeah, I tried it after 3-hit air EX tatsu without success.

Ditto, really fun that it has JP though... I've never attaempted IA Demons but now they're the kind of move i'll attempt when i'm against someone crappy & want to style.

Revised Ryu Jump MP

1st: JP2 - Stun - Float
2nd: JP2 - Stun - SKD

Just seems like Jump MP can hit character lower than it used to after they've reached JP2.

Revised Ryu Shaku:

1st: JP1 - SKD* - SKD*
2nd: JP2+ - Float - Float

* - Adds 2 points to Juggle counter unless opponent is in Juggle state.

Pokey86 wrote:Just seems like Jump MP can hit character lower than it used to after they've reached JP2.

It doesn't have JP2, 2nd hit has JP1 though. just look att the attack data, if it does 50 damage it's hit 1, if it does 30 it's hit 2.

I'm currently writing down a lot of stuff, but I'll have to sleep now, so I'll post what I have.

I will write how I came up with the stuff that's not self-explanatory.

Ryu:

j.MP
1st: JP0 - Stun - Float
2nd: JP1 - Stun - SKD

Proof/Method of Discovery (MoD from now on): CH EX hadoken or 1st hit j.MPx2 to LP SRK doesn't work.

EX Hadoken
1st: JP1 - SKD*(CH=Float) - SKD*(CH=Float)
2nd: JP2+ - Float - Float
*Adds 2 to the juggle counter if it hits someone that's not already being juggled.

Proof/MoD: Can combo 4 in a row on CH for 7 hits.
If you absorb a hit, the 2nd hit causes float without CH.
If you do it for one hit on Dhalsim's j.LP, MP SRK won't connect.
By ignoring meter restrictions, I managed to connect 5 EX hadokens, which means that the JC never goes over 2, which means JP on 1st hit is 1.

Blanka:

H Rolling attack:
First two frames: JP0 - SKD - SKD
Remaining frames: JP0 - Stun - SKD

EX Rolling attack:
First two frames: JP0 - Float - Float
Remaining frames: JP0 - Stun - SKD

Proof/MoD: By throwing a rose with Dudley and then FADC into backdashes, I was able to prove that the far version causes SKD and not Float on air hit.

EX Vertical Roll
JP0 - SKD - SKD

anti ground U2
1st: JP0 - Stun - N/A
2nd: JP1 - Stun - SKD
3rd: JP0 - Stun - SKD
4th: JP2 - SKD - SKD

Proof/MoD: The first hit doesn't connect on late crumple.

Zangief:

far s.HP
JP0 - SKD - SKD

Dhalsim:

Yoga Blast: LK/MK

JP0 - N/A - HKD

Yoga Blast: HK

JP0 - N/A - HKD+Float

Yoga Blast: EX

JP0 - N/A - HKD+Float
JP1 - N/A - HKD

Proof/MoD: Trade with 1st hit shows it's float.
Won't combo after AA EX Yoga Fire
While having the 1st hit absorbed by a zanku hadoken,the 2nd hit couldn't be comboed into an EX FA.

U1:
1st: JPX - Stun - Float
2nd: JPX+ - Stun - Float
3rd: JPX - Stun - Float
4th: JPX+ - Stun - Float
5th: JPX - Float – Float

Proof/MoD: On air hit, you always seem to be able to connect a move with JP1, but not JP0, after three hits, be it the first three, the middle three, or the last three.
j.d.HP connects after 4 hits, but not if you absorb the first hit. I looked att the combo damage and how it scaled to make sure I hit at the right time.
If you absorb the first hit, it seems JP0 moves won't be able to connect after 2 hits, but if you don't, they do.
After absorbing a 3-hit shakunetsu hadoken, and then AA-hitting with the remaining 2 hits, you can't connect JP0 moves, but JP1 moves.

Vega:

Sky High Claw: Normal

JP0 - SKD - SKD

Proof/MoD: Rose trade to 1-hit EX ST juggle.
trade lvl.1 FA with Dhalsim j.LP to make sure it still had JP0.

U1:
1st: JP0+ - Float - Float
2nd: JP0 - AUTO - AUTO

Proof/MoD: trade lvl.1 FA with Dhalsim j.LP to make sure none of the hits had JP. Both hits connect after dh.HK.

C.Viper:

Burning Kick: EX Air

1st: JP1+ - Float - Float
2nd: JP2+ - Float - Float
3rd: JP3+ - Float - Float
4th: JP4 - SKD - SKD

Proof/MoD: This video.

Rufus:

U2:
1st: JP0 - AUTO - AUTO
2nd-10th: JP1-9 - Stun - SKD
11th-17th: JP0 - Stun - N/A
18th: JP0 - SKD - N/A

Proof/MoD: I can't really prove how juggling works in the ultra, but because I can't do 2-hit AA U2 into c.L (but I have enough time to do LP Super) using rose trade, I have proven it's at least not not JP0+-stuff going on.

El Fuerte

EX Quesadilla Bomb

JP0 - SKD(CH=Float wallbounce) - SKD(CH=Float wallbounce)

Dan:

Air EX Dankukyaku
1st: JP1 - SKD - SKD
2nd: JP2 - SKD - SKD
3rd: JP3 - SKD - SKD

DeeJay:

Ultra 1 - Super follow-up only:
1st: JP6 - Stun - SKD
2nd: JP7 - Stun - SKD
3rd: JP8 - Stun - SKD
4th: JP9 - SKD - SKD
5th: JP10 - SKD - SKD
6th: JP11 - SKD - SKD

Proof/MoD: By doing this against Zangief in the corner: max range lvl.3 FA, backdash, MP air slasher xx HK Super, you can make the final hit whiff, then the full ultra will connect.

Cody:

Bad Spray:
1st: JP0 - Float - Float
2nd: JP0 - SKD- SKD

Proof/MoD: Made only first hit connect against dhalsim j.LP, juggled with far s.MK afterwards.

Ibuki:

U1:
1st: JP0 - AUTO - AUTO*
2nd-8th: JPX - Stun - SKD
*Only connects during late crumple.

Proof/MoD: Can connect fully on an opponent laying down after FA.
Can connect fully after s.HK to 1-hit EX kunai, which means the first hit is at least JP3. If you can get it to connect after "s.HK, Kazegiri" or trade with super somehow, we can find out for sure if it has JP4 or more.

U2:
1st: JP1 - Stun - SKD
2nd: JP2 - Stun - SKD
3rd: JP3 - Stun - SKD
4th: JP4 - SKD - SKD
5th: JP5+ - SKD - SKD
6th: JP1 - AUTO - AUTO
7th: JP6 - SKD - SKD

Proof/MoD: Can't think of another solution other than this one unless the first three hits has some flag that makes it impossible to go into animation, because the 6th hit alone can do it, which means it's probably some 0-damage hit that requires the JP to be low enough for it to work. trade AA lvl.3 FA vs Dhalsim j.LP into U2 triggers the animation, when the 4th hit is the first hit to connect after float. The numbers I'm writing here are probably incorrect, but I think they can explain every possible situation. Hit 6 and 7 is basically the same hit, only that hit 7 happens when the JP is too high to trigger the animation. This could also explain the weird knockdon you get sometimes when you hit with the tip of the up kick, maybe it's the 7th hit that "shines through".

I can confirm how these work once they release the patch for pc
edit: you should probably update it to mention that there is no such thing as JPX. JPX just means a really high JP, like 99 or 127

Cheers Doop, very solid findings, i've only been playing it in fractions (like, total of 30 mins play so far) I'll be checking this stuff soon enough. Got a few days off work.

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It doesn't have JP2, 2nd hit has JP1 though. just look att the attack data, if it does 50 damage it's hit 1, if it does 30 it's hit 2.

Yeah, slipped my mind to check the attack Data

Yoga Blast: LK/MK

JP0 - N/A - HKD

Yoga Blast: HK

JP0 - N/A - HKD+Float

Yoga Blast: EX

JP0 - N/A - HKD+Float
JP1 - N/A - HKD

Proof/MoD: Trade with 1st hit shows it's float.

Do we have the same understanding of what HKD is? I haven't played or seen Sim yet, but HKD to me is when the opponent slams hard in to the cround, similair to Mokoto's MP/LP Oroshi hitting air, her HK Axe kick, Dan/Cody's neutral jump HP. HKD+ is a hard knockdown that is untechable, Sweep, Demon palm, last hit of Otoshi etc. any move that causes a floaty knockdown (SKD) that is untechable has a * next to it, with a note... As they're very rare. (Cody's EX Ruffian hitting airborne, 1st/2nd Otoshi hit, Makoto's forward + HK hitting air)

U1:
1st: JPX - Stun - Float
2nd: JPX+ - Stun - Float
3rd: JPX - Stun - Float
4th: JPX+ - Stun - Float
5th: JPX - Float – Float

Proof/MoD: On air hit, you always seem to be able to connect a move with JP1, but not JP0, after three hits, be it the first three, the middle three, or the last three.
j.d.HP connects after 4 hits, but not if you absorb the first hit. I looked att the combo damage and how it scaled to make sure I hit at the right time.
If you absorb the first hit, it seems JP0 moves won't be able to connect after 2 hits, but if you don't, they do.
After absorbing a 3-hit shakunetsu hadoken, and then AA-hitting with the remaining 2 hits, you can't connect JP0 moves, but JP1 moves.

Good findings, but i already had his U1 marked up as this. (As far as i know)

Proof/MoD: Can't think of another solution other than that the first three hits has some flag that makes it impossible to go into animation,

I know Evil Ryu's First hit of Ultra 2 is a flag hit to activate full Ultra, i don't recall any others... But i haven't used Ibuki yet.

Cheers again Doopliss, this is a great help.

I heard a rumous Sakuras 1st/2nd Otoshi no longer cause Floaty untechable knockdown... I hope that rumour is false.

Pokey86 wrote:Do we have the same understanding of what HKD is?

I guess not, I just meant they're untechable In that case, I can add that the first hit of Rufus' U2 has HKD on the first hit on airborne, but since it also starts the rest of the move, I'd still put auto there.

Pokey86 wrote: Good findings, but i already had his U1 marked up as this. (As far as i know)

Nope, it says

"1st: JPX - Stun - Float
2nd: JPX - Stun - Float
3rd: JPX - Stun - Float
4th: JPX - Stun - Float
5th: JPX - Float – Float"

Proof/MoD: On air hit, you always seem to be able to connect a move with JP1, but not JP0, after three hits, be it the first three, the middle three, or the last three.
j.d.HP connects after 4 hits, but not if you absorb the first hit. I looked att the combo damage and how it scaled to make sure I hit at the right time.
If you absorb the first hit, it seems JP0 moves won't be able to connect after 2 hits, but if you don't, they do.
After absorbing a 3-hit shakunetsu hadoken, and then AA-hitting with the remaining 2 hits, you can't connect JP0 moves, but JP1 moves.

Isn't this the way it's always worked?
if so then this is wrong

U1:
1st: JPX - Stun - Float
2nd: JPX+ - Stun - Float
3rd: JPX - Stun - Float
4th: JPX+ - Stun - Float
5th: JPX - Float – Float

the way uc1 works is there are six hit boxes, three for close and three for far ( like most projectiles ), the first and second hitboxs hit twice and the last one hits once. The way multi hitting hitboxes work is they juggle the same regardless of how they hit. You could have a hitbox that hits 10 times and it will put them in the same juggle state whether it hits once or all ten.

The game keeps track of four different numbers relating to how each hitbox juggles
How much the move adds to the juggle potential if it starts the combo ( this is the only one that can be different on CH, air, Crouching etc )
the juggle potential

Then Two that I think are
Ending juggle increase if juggled
Does it add to juggle?
They seem redundant but both can cause a float state
Edit: oh there is another one that is used to reset the juggle, it's -1 on things that reset, otherwise it needs to be different for each hit box, I'll call it juggle ID I guess


In game terms UC1 looks like this
1-2: JP127 - HIT - KNOCKDOWN - Starting Juggle 0 - if juggled 1 - add to juggle? 1 - Juggle ID 0
3-4: JP127 - HIT - KNOCKDOWN - Starting Juggle 0 - if juggled 1 - add to juggle? 1 - Juggle ID 1
5: JP127 - KNOCKDOWN - KNOCKDOWN - Starting Juggle 0 - if juggled 1 - add to juggle? 1 - Juggle ID 2

error1 wrote:Isn't this the way it's always worked?

Yeah, I just added it since it didn't say in the first post.

error1 wrote:In game terms UC1 looks like this
1-2: JP127 - HIT - KNOCKDOWN - Starting Juggle 0 - if juggled 1 - add to juggle? 1 - Juggle ID 0
3-4: JP127 - HIT - KNOCKDOWN - Starting Juggle 0 - if juggled 1 - add to juggle? 1 - Juggle ID 1
5: JP127 - KNOCKDOWN - KNOCKDOWN - Starting Juggle 0 - if juggled 1 - add to juggle? 1 - Juggle ID 2

That's basically the same thing though, isn't it? Our method of explaining juggles may not reflect what's actually happening in-game, but the end result is still the same.

Holy shit,i researched it but didn't change it? I swear i remember changing it...

Doopliss wrote: That's basically the same thing though, isn't it?

you suggest that hits 2 and 4 have different juggle proprieties from the other hits, so if you can nullify hits 1, 3, and 5 you will maintain a float state
that's not the case

error1 wrote:

Doopliss wrote: That's basically the same thing though, isn't it?

you suggest that hits 2 and 4 have different juggle proprieties from the other hits, so if you can nullify hits 1, 3, and 5 you will maintain a float state
that's not the case

Surely if you somehow managed to nullify both the 3rd and 5th hit, you could connect with a normal afterwards? I don't see why that wouldn't happen, since I don't really get everything in that block of info you posted. All the tests I have done indicates that it would. Since you're using tool assistance though, maybe you could record one of these situations?

1: Have U1 hit someone in the air, negeate the 3rd hit with a projectile, and try doing EX Yoga Fire/Blast/Flame or Yoga Mummy afterwards. My model says it should be JP1 and one hit would connect.
2: Have U1 hit someone in the air, negate the 3rd and 5th hit with EX Zanku or something, then connect a EX Yoga Blast. My model says it should be JP0 so both hits would connect.

Given that error1 can dissect the source filles & we are basing are info of of trial & error, while i'm inclined to say that Error no doubt has the stronger information, we are close enough that we're simply splitting hairs at the differences from Errors genuine numbers to our "best-guess" numbers.

I mean, nullify hit 1, 3 & 5? I'm all up for detail, but if you think i'm testing things that thoroughly you can go fuck yourself ^_^

Pokey86 wrote:Given that error1 can dissect the source filles & we are basing are info of of trial & error, while i'm inclined to say that Error no doubt has the stronger information, we are close enough that we're simply splitting hairs at the differences from Errors genuine numbers to our "best-guess" numbers.

Yeah, but I'm curious still. Not to look down on error1 or anything, but he could have interpreted the data wrong, doing an in-game test is the best proof.

Sooooo... who won this argument? You or Doopliss? i have no idea what that video proves

Pokey86 wrote:Sooooo... who won this argument? You or Doopliss? i have no idea what that video proves

I guess I did, since it still had JP1 when the 3rd hit was negated.

Some more changes btw:

Dudley:

Thunder Bolt: Normal

1st: JP0 - HKD+ - HKD+
2nd: JP1 - HKD+ - HKD+

Thunderbolt: EX

1st: JP0 - Stun - HKD+
2nd: JP1 - Stun - HKD+
3rd: JP2 - Stun - HKD+
4th: JP3 - Stun - HKD+
5th: JP4 - HKD+ - HKD+

Proof/MoD: Trading LP Jet Upper with Dhalsim j.LP allowed for a 1-hit juggle with normal and a 4-hit juggle with EX.

Super - Rocket Upper:

1st: JP5 - SKD - SKD
2-16: - JP5* Ascending - SKD - SKD
* Ascending JP starting from JP5 on first hit.

Proof/MoD: Only the first hit of the first uppercut will connect after c.HK to MP MGB. Maybe both hits in the 2nd uppercut is JP6, but I don't know how to check it.

Ultra 1 - Rolling Thunder:

1st: JP0 - Stun - N/A
2nd: JP1 - Stun - SKD
3rd: JP2 - Stun - SKD
4th: JP3 - Stun - SKD
5th: JP4 - AUTO - SKD
6th: JP5 - Stun - SKD
7th: JP5 - Stun - SKD

Proof/MoD: last hit won't connect after c.HK to U1.
Can't connect 2nd hit after AA ducking Upper.

DeeJay:

Ultra 1 - Super follow-up only:
1st: JP7 - Stun - SKD
2nd: JP8 - Stun - SKD
3rd: JP9 - Stun - SKD
4th: JP10 - SKD - SKD
5th: JP11 - SKD - SKD
6th: JP12 - SKD - SKD

Proof/MoD: I managed to do FA, late s.HK xx LK Super, delayed cancel to U1 on Zangief, and have it all combo fully (well, except first hit of super), so the JP on the first hit is 7 or more.

Evil Ryu

- HK Axe kick is now JP1 (HKD+ - HKD+)

- MK Axe kick is at least JP6 (Stun - HKD+)

Adon U1 3rd juggled hit is now HKD (HKD+ since it's an ultra).

First hit of Oni's EX SRK with animation is now untechable. Only EX.

Just wrote those down so that I wouldn't forget. Also, you should check if the 5th hit of EX thunderbolt, connected in the air, is untechable, because I wrote that they weren't. I assume it was just a typo though, since the other hits are untechable.

Doopliss wrote:Adon U1 3rd juggled hit is now HKD (HKD+ since it's an ultra).

First hit of Oni's EX SRK with animation is now untechable. Only EX.

Just wrote those down so that I wouldn't forget. Also, you should check if the 5th hit of EX thunderbolt, connected in the air, is untechable, because I wrote that they weren't. I assume it was just a typo though, since the other hits are untechable.

You mean the hit that you can't FADC? why would they do that for EX only? i mean they're going to punish you for an animated SRK if the hurtbox of the secnd hit whiffs?

Just wrote those down so that I wouldn't forget. Also, you should check if the 5th hit of EX thunderbolt, connected in the air, is untechable, because I wrote that they weren't. I assume it was just a typo though, since the other hits are untechable.

I'm pretty sure you can't have a move where only some of the hits are untechable. The Tech flag is in a file with the command/metter that kind of thing. The hitboxs and other stuff are in a different file.

error1 wrote:

Just wrote those down so that I wouldn't forget. Also, you should check if the 5th hit of EX thunderbolt, connected in the air, is untechable, because I wrote that they weren't. I assume it was just a typo though, since the other hits are untechable.

I'm pretty sure you can't have a move where only some of the hits are untechable. The Tech flag is in a file with the command/metter that kind of thing. The hitboxs and other stuff are in a different file.

but only that hit is untechable for EX SRK D:

Even if you only get that it with a non-EX SRK, you can recover before they quick stand, so the untechable thing only allows you to get a stronger oki-game, it doesn't save you from being punished, since there was never any risk (I think, maybe Zangief U1 or something can punish it in the corner).

Doopliss wrote: but only that hit is untechable for EX SRK D:

Even if you only get that it with a non-EX SRK, you can recover before they quick stand, so the untechable thing only allows you to get a stronger oki-game, it doesn't save you from being punished, since there was never any risk (I think, maybe Zangief U1 or something can punish it in the corner).

I just tested it and it is techable pre 2012. Idk, I'm pretty sure that's not possible, unless they added it to the hitbox table in 2012. It's probably a workaround that looks and acts like an untechable knockdown but isn't.

error1 wrote:

Doopliss wrote: but only that hit is untechable for EX SRK D:

Even if you only get that it with a non-EX SRK, you can recover before they quick stand, so the untechable thing only allows you to get a stronger oki-game, it doesn't save you from being punished, since there was never any risk (I think, maybe Zangief U1 or something can punish it in the corner).

I just tested it and it is techable pre 2012. Idk, I'm pretty sure that's not possible, unless they added it to the hitbox table in 2012. It's probably a workaround that looks and acts like an untechable knockdown but isn't.

Yeah, it's on the changelist for 2012. It's not a sweep knockdown, so I don't see how they could fake an untechable knockdown otherwise.

yeah I can't actually say for sure, they could make the hit effect be to run a script. It's safe to call it untechable, I just hope to clear it up on pc release.

Changes:

Stars on character names (Will be seen on the SRK site when character names ar titles for Spoiler dropdown boxes.

* = AE Change

** = AE 2012 Change

Ryu - Jump MP
Ryu - HP SRK
Ryu - EX Shaku
Blanka - HP Ball
Blanka - EX Ball
Blanka - EX Vertical Roll
Zangief - Far Standing HP
Sim - Yoga Blast
Sim - Ultra 1 Corrected
Vega - Sky High Claw
Vega - Ultra 1
Viper - Air EX Burning Kick
Rufus - Ultra 2
Fuerte - Quasadilla Bomb (EX)
Dan - Air EX Danku
Dee Jay - Ultra 1 - Changed to JPX when activated during Super.
Cody - Bad Spray
Ibuki - Ultra 1
Ibuki - Ultra 2
Dudley - Thunderbolt
Dudley - Super
Dudley - Ultra 1
Evil Ryu - Axe Kick changes (Still can't get AA Ultra to MK Axe though)
Adon - Ultra 1 (Tame)
Oni - EX SRK
Oni - Post Dash EX Tatsu
Oni - Air Super
T.Hawk - Close HK
Fei Long - 1st hit of Super (Juggled opponent only?)
Yang - Target Combo kicks, last hit is JP1

Am i missing anything?

edit: you should probably update it to mention that there is no such thing as JPX. JPX just means a really high JP, like 99 or 127

I don't want to make it anymore complicated than it already is, hell some people have still PM'd me confirming what SKD means... at the moment JPX is the only thing that easy to Grasp.

JPX = Never misses, unless someone is capable of breaking that rule for the move, then it ain't worth complicating it. Sure you can do it if you remove meter restrictions, but without that, majority of the moves defined as JPX will never miss.

Dee Jays neutral jump HP has JP & causes hard knockdown now. (techable)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV5OeAxyYfo

In this video he does HP Blanka ball (I think, since it deals 120 dmg?), trade into AA U2. Does that mean AA U2 has JP now? (2:22)

He also juggles after Oni Air U1 at the end of the video, which I guess means it doesn't raise JP by a bunch on a grounded hit like other super projectiles do.

Doopliss wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV5OeAxyYfo

In this video he does HP Blanka ball (I think, since it deals 120 dmg?), trade into AA U2. Does that mean AA U2 has JP now? (2:22)

doesn't look like aerial hit stun to me

error1 wrote:

Doopliss wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV5OeAxyYfo

In this video he does HP Blanka ball (I think, since it deals 120 dmg?), trade into AA U2. Does that mean AA U2 has JP now? (2:22)

doesn't look like aerial hit stun to me

I dunno, it's hard to tell. Which is why we should test it a little more.