Random Lazy Questions

[Xenozip.]

The push box.

It's like a hitbox that prevents two characters from walking through one another. When you walk into a standing character your pushbox pushes the opponent around. You know the effects of this box because of claw's dive pushing characters full screen distances when other-wall diving against airborne opponents.

What do you think happens when a move like Mariah's 5C has her pushbox suddenly teleport two character lengths forward? This is also what technically defines a kara-throw (like in 3s), because if a move modifies the position of the hitbox, and then you cancel that move, you end up where the pushbox is. Hence why Mariah sort of teleports forward when she whiff cancels her 5C, rather than returning to her original position. It defines your actual physical location and prevents two pushboxes from overlapping, the sprites and the hittable boxes and attack boxes have nothing to do with where you actually are, the pushbox is "you".

In SFA3 there are quite a few characters that appear to move dramatically forward during their moves, however this is just sprite and hittable box, not pushbox. This is evident in the fact that they return to their original position if the move is interrupted. But then there's other moves, like R.Mika's standing HP that actually moves her pushbox quite a bit forwards, so if she whiff cancels that move she will be moved to the new pushbox position, which is a char-length or two forwards.

[Maj]

Well, i think we just stumbled into the dark side of hitboxes. I'm starting to miss the way these simple questions would've been answered before we had direct access. Overall i'm sure it's a positive change, but we definitely used to have more imaginative explanations before "don't you know? hitboxes foo!" was considered an acceptable answer. I guess it was inevitable though.

Anyway another question: Why does only 1st Player get a combo counter in JBA? Seems like no matter what i do with 2P, the numbers never show up - only the "Good" / "Nice" / etc. messages afterward.

[onReload]

It has to do with the emulation; I have NO idea why that's something that would be missing. Also, in 3s, have two Chuns do standing Fierce right up against each other. They switch sides...::shrug::

[Maj]

Figures. I always worry about emulator accuracy when it comes to CPS3 games and 3D games. Ah well, at least there weren't any combo counters in my screenshots. Hopefully it hasn't affected them in any other way.

[Xenozip.]

Well, i think we just stumbled into the dark side of hitboxes. I'm starting to miss the way these simple questions would've been answered before we had direct access. Overall i'm sure it's a positive change, but we definitely used to have more imaginative explanations before "don't you know? hitboxes foo!" was considered an acceptable answer. I guess it was inevitable though.

Anyway another question: Why does only 1st Player get a combo counter in JBA? Seems like no matter what i do with 2P, the numbers never show up - only the "Good" / "Nice" / etc. messages afterward.

... I disagree. The presence and knowledge of the pushbox has been around since before anyone could see it. My answer to why that happens would have been the same five years ago, only difference is now I can show you proof in various games too, including ones relevant to your interests. It's not so much "don't you know? hitboxes foo!" and more "let's not patronize him by giving him a long-winded verbose explanation, just say collision box and leave it at that".

If you enjoy unraveling games yourself and dislike when the mystery is revealed to the barebones then maybe it's better to not ask.

If anything I would have thought you'd be excited about turning that information into an article. But w/e.

[Maj]

Her collision box extends during her frontstep.

What new information does this give me, exactly? First of all, why did you say "collision box" and not "pushbox"? If there's an article that needs to be written here, it's a terminology list (and i hate writing those).

Well yeah, of course we always imagined characters having a physical presence on the screen. Something has to prevent them from walking through each other, which gets erased when they become invincible or roll or whatever. If you were trying to not patronize me, a couple of extra words would've helped clarify what you were trying to say so we could move forward discussing the characters instead of regressing backward to system basics.

Anyway the point i was trying to make is: Our old way of phrasing your answer would've been to say that their positions simultaneously move forward enough in one frame to skip through each other (assuming that it's not a temporary invincibility issue). And whoever answered the question probably would've provided another example of dashes where that same thing happens, so we would have something to compare it to. Then we'd try to find the pattern as best we could, to predict another instance. Now we point to hypothetical hitboxes and leave it at that?

I don't have a problem with calling it a hitbox issue if the answer includes the actual hitbox or any of that other stuff you said you could've shown me. But to leave it at "collision box" is basically just saying "look it up!" which is essentially saying "discussion denied." I guess i'm not a big fan of pointing to hitboxes and implying that proof exists without actually providing it. Unless you feel like we'd be better off with everyone keeping quiet in their own corner?

[CPS2]

First of all, why did you say "collision box" and not "pushbox"?

I've heard some people (probably coming from a FPS background) call them clip or clipping boxes. Another vote for "pushbox" though, explains what it is and what it does

[phoenix]

Sooo, why does this happen?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdLR4uqP ... re=related
I had a look at Blanka's hitbox on that move and see no reason why it would whiff on anyone. So unless Rose actually has lower body invincibility during her forward walk, which she doesn't seem to have either I have no clue whit it is happening.

[Maj]

Sooo, why does this happen?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdLR4uqPjII

Okay so we've got Blanka's slide and Rose walking forward (for a bit at 0:20). Can't really tell what's going on though. There's a stray box way behind Rose, but i'm not sure what that represents.

Although it actually does look like the base of Rose's hitbox is simply higher than the top of Blanka's slide hitbox. And Rose's hitbox baseline definitely rises when she's walking forward compared to standing in neutral (0:19-0:20).

[Doopliss]

align the two pictures and you will see that Blankas slide goes under Rose's walking hitbox, like you said.

[error1]

it's pretty obvious when you put them together, rose has invincible shoes

[Dammit]

"Collision" is synonymous with "hit" so calling them collision boxes doesn't get far. We'll probably need a terminology list at some point at least for our usage.

For example this community has a different system and seems to use beatbox/bbox.

[onReload]

Pushbox always seemed natural to me, but "existence box" is probably more accurate, though a mouth/handful...Still, I don't know if I prefer "impact freeze" vs. "hitstop". Maj has a good list already though.

[Maj]

All i'm saying is this wouldn'a happened before hitbox display. Just an observation, nothing more.

(With great rectangles comes great responsibility!)

[Doopliss]

it's pretty obvious when you put them together, rose has invincible shoes

You're aligning the wrong box for rose, it's the thin lined yellow one you should be aligning. They're like, one or two pixels apart.

Btw, fun fact: In Super Smash Bros Brawl, the hitboxes (at least the hurtboxes of the attacks, haven't seen how any of the other boxes look.) are circles, not squares.

[felineki]

I use "pushbox" because that's the term I was used to from Mugen terminology. For what it's worth, Mugen refers to the freeze upon moment of impact as "hitpause".

[Xenozip.]

All i'm saying is this wouldn'a happened before hitbox display. Just an observation, nothing more.

(With great rectangles comes great responsibility!)

Exactly what happened?

Her collision box extends during her frontstep.

-snip-

Not sure how you got "discussion denied" from this post, when in my next post I was elaborating in further detail and trying to discuss it. I think it's a case of you misinterpreting my intentions and going off on a random nut.

Now this discussion has mutated into a discussion about you and how you feel about stuff and your pet peeves, and I'm not interested in that, but if you want to get back on topic then I'm willing. Don't twist this around, this is sh/f and we're talking directly to Maj in the "Random Lazy Questions" thread, it's got nothing to do with how anyone (myself included) explains the cross-through "phenomenon" to anyone else (you asked a random lazy question and you got a correct answer, like I said I've explained it over a dozen times and my answer would be no different from five years ago).

EG. five years ago you would ask that question, I'd give the exact same answer, and then you'd be like "wtf does that mean", and then I'd explain in full detail just like I did this year. The ONLY difference between back then and now is that I have proof. To put this in retrospect, this info is so esoteric that normally no one would give a damn, the vast majority of players do not care for or understand hitboxes, but now that we can see what's going with the characters in the hitbox viewer; we (as enthusiast and artists) can set up situational combos that can only occur because of hitbox movement that we can now calculate and see. Whether the combo occurs only because of a cross-through or because the action the dummy took moved forwards or backwards and/or was interrupted, etc. For some one who is hype about picking apart frames and situational setups you should understand this.

(But no no no nooo Maj, let's not bother with any of that let's talk about you!!! /obvious sarcasm)

[Maj]

EG. five years ago you would ask that question, I'd give the exact same answer, and then you'd be like "wtf does that mean", and then I'd explain in full detail just like I did this year.

Um, no ... Five years ago "Her collision box extends during her frontstep" wouldn't have meant anything. Not that it means anything today, but at least five years ago we wouldn't be pretending that it means something. I honestly feel like this discussion would've gone dramatically differently five years ago.

Also what exactly have i done to give off the impression that this is MY sh/f and that i have to be treated differently from anyone else? We're having this (and every other) discussion as equals, aren't we? I'm certainly not the only one here who voices his pet peeves. I'm sorry if you feel like i'm singling you out, but yeah, i do have a problem with having to jump through all these hoops just to get a simple question answered. This isn't the first time i've had this complaint and you're not the first person i've had this complaint with.

Admittedly i asked a question that probably nobody cares about, and i would've been totally fine with that response, like "That's weird, but not much you can do with it" or "Yeah i've seen that happen in a matchvid but it seemed harmless" or call it plain boring. I wasn't expecting a 10-page discussion to come out of that tiny finding. Just don't try to act like you know something i don't, then keep it hidden behind apathetic tech support lingo.

edit: Hell, when this all started, i wasn't even trying to be critical per se. I was just pointing out an interesting/unexpected turn of events.

[felineki]

Random lazy question: Anyone have data on defense rankings for Vampire Hunter? I've seen the ones for Savior at several places, but have yet to come across any for Hunter.

[PimpWilly]

Circles are easier on computer code to determine collisions than squares, for two circles to determine if they collide you just find the distance apart from the 2 centers, and if the radius of the 2 hitboxes added together is less than the distance apart, its a hit. On a processor, this is really quick and easy to do, and for the most part pretty much how most 3d games outside of Fighting Games would do it. (insert generic Smash not a real fighter joke here)

With squares, its a bit harder. Since the distance from the center is variable on a square, it's harder to determine if two squares overlap. I forget the algorithm off the top of my head, but its a fair bit more complicated to try and think of something. So that's why most games would just use circles and call it a day (performance and ease of coding).

The hitbox display is personally interesting to me, but I like looking at games from the coding perspective and trying to dissect how they managed to put it all together myself

[error1]

who's is nu_? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGXgp7cU6EQ
the last combo makes me thing a r4 combo would be good for damage expo

[Maj]

Hm, name doesn't ring any bells but there's literally nothing new in that video. I mean it's advanced stuff execution-wise, but it looks like someone got ahold of a programmable controller and decided to reproduce Sai-Rec combos for no reason.

It's not too surprising considering the date listed in the description: 22/12/2007.

[desk]

Does SSFIV have a high-score leaderboard? Could someone with the 360 version check what the top score is for me?

boss!

[Maj]

All i see under XBL Leaderboards are Player Points and Battle Points. You can look up your own personal score records listed by character under Player Data, but i can't find any of that for anyone else. Then again i'm not exactly familiar with all this, so maybe i'm just not looking in the right place - but i checked pretty much everywhere.

[desk]

Thanks Maj, only been able to speak to 1 other person about that and they couldn't find anything either. Guess they don't have a leaderboard like they did in vanilla. They have records over at twin galaxies but there are clearly not enough people willing to submit stuff to them because the top score is double the 2nd place score. ergh!! I really wanted to do a run but there seems little point because no one else has really tried to do it.

[Maj]

Why not? It might get a lot of responses, if nothing else. Plus you might get lucky with search results generating a lot of views. That happens randomly with playthroughs pretty often.

[error1]

twin galaxies is kind of a joke.
I mean have you read there rules on "leaching"?
http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=860

[onReload]

yeah it's all designed for the older school videogames... which really doesn't include fighting games.

[Doopliss]

twin galaxies is kind of a joke.
I mean have you read there rules on "leaching"?
http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=860

That should really just go for games with infinite time.

[error1]

it doesn't though
http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx? ... 411&vi=434
for example in smb you can jump on a turtle shell once or twice, but if you do it three times your disqualified.
My main problem with twin galaxies besides how arbitrary the rules can be, is that there is no quality check.
For example I could send them a video of me beating fallout 3 in two hours and they would probably give me a "world record" even though anything over an hour would be a horrible time, the judges can't tell if the time is any good or if I cheated because they've probably never played the game.
Also the judge is the only one who sees the video so if I was cheating and got a really good time there is no way to check it.
really tho the worst part is that they call themselves "official" which is pretty laughable considering how bad most of there records are.
for example this record had me laughing out loud
http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx? ... 35&vi=1808
in 2001 he became the only person to achieve 100% completion of quake, which is probably the most popular pc game ever