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Looks like Rose is immune to s.LK -> s.LK, LP Snake Strike, ultra. Tried it with every possible Snake Strike timing and no dice. It's only like one or frames too slow because LP super connects. Ultra is 1+8 startup whereas LP super is 1+6.

Speaking of which, SF4's air reel system is fucking weird. Like with the Ryu vs Dhalsim combos and the Ryu vs Ken combo in the Evo Ryu vid, i was doing all of the j.MP's as late as possible but it didn't work. Then i tried them a little earlier and it worked even though Ryu obviously had more descent recovery time after the last one. It's like they fall slower than you land or something, so it's better to hit them high.

It'd be rather amusing if you could whiff Ultra backwards and hit her "backwards". I know that if you jump over a whiffing Rufus it's rather easy to walk toward him and be struck by the last hit. Though that may have something to do with the walking-forward hittable box moreso than the last hit's hitbox.

Hahahaha someone please take a screenshot of s.LK -> s.HK, LP Snake Strike, ultra vs Guile. It doesn't work but it is hilarious.

Okay nevermind the last few posts. I'm dumb. Party's over. The juggle counter is still active after LP Snake Strike connects after juggling LP super, so you can't do anything. Low jab whiffs right through her.

Guess i'm doing a ground combo.

Maj wrote:Hahahaha someone please take a screenshot of s.LK -> s.HK, LP Snake Strike, ultra vs Guile. It doesn't work but it is hilarious.

Uh-oh. Loading the game now...

Aight here[moved].

Edit: actually Maj I moved this post.

Found more stuff that doesn't work. Rufus can do lvl3 Focus Attack xx dash forward, j.DF+MK divekick, c.MP, s.LK -> s.HK and then we got nothin'. No way to combo into Galactic Tornado from c.MP either, cuz you can only link to jabs which only combo into LP Galactic Tornado from point blank range.

Maj wrote:Found more stuff that doesn't work. Rufus can do lvl3 Focus Attack xx dash forward, j.DF+MK divekick, c.MP, s.LK -> s.HK and then we got nothin'. No way to combo into Galactic Tornado from c.MP either, cuz you can only link to jabs which only combo into LP Galactic Tornado from point blank range.

Maybe you could use lvl3 Focus Attack xx dash forward, j.DF+MK divekick, s.HP -> something or

lvl3 Focus Attack xx dash forward, j.DF+MK divekick,s.LK, s.HP -> something

is it possible to add a super trade before the lvl 3 FA? Then you could do:
super -> lvl3 Focus Attack xx dash forward, j.DF+MK divekick,s.LK, s.HP xx HP tornado -> Ultra. s.LK -> s.HP etc is a little overused though.

Yeah right now the combo is crossup j.MK, c.MP, c.LK xx LP super (two hits, LP Soul Spark interrupt), lvl3 Focus Attack xx dash forward, j.DF+MK divekick, s.LK, s.HP xx HP Galactic Tornado, ultra. But i'm worried that s.LK, s.HP xx Galactic Tornado is way too common since everyone uses it in matches even. Nothing else works though so i might not have a choice. Everything Rufus tries, Rose is like, "No you cannot."

In fact i might even go with s.LK, c.MK xx HP Galactic Tornado since it's less standard and actually kinda hard to do.

Maj wrote:Yeah right now the combo is crossup j.MK, c.MP, c.LK xx LP super (two hits, LP Soul Spark interrupt), lvl3 Focus Attack xx dash forward, j.DF+MK divekick, s.LK, s.HP xx HP Galactic Tornado, ultra. But i'm worried that s.LK, s.HP xx Galactic Tornado is way too common since everyone uses it in matches even. Nothing else works though so i might not have a choice. Everything Rufus tries, Rose is like, "No you cannot."

Yeah, JWong has referred to divekick -> s.LK, s.HP xx GT as one of his BnBs. I don't know Rufus frame data but you could just do FA3, dash up, difficult links to a cancelable normal xx GT, ultra

onReload wrote:Yeah, JWong has referred to divekick -> s.LK, s.HP xx GT as one of his BnBs. I don't know Rufus frame data but you could just do FA3, dash up, difficult links to a cancelable normal xx GT, ultra

Nothing works dude. It's either s.LK, c.MK xx HP Galactic Tornado or c.LP, s.LK, s.HP xx HP Galactic Tornado. Maybe i'll flip a coin.

Maj wrote:Maybe i'll flip a coin.

I approve of this methodology.

Damn it, Viper's ultra stays invincible all the way through the last frame of ground pound. That means you gotta interrupt it with a fireball which means she has no time to sparkle before the uppercut. Then the combo is ultra (one hit), uppercut xx HP super. Kinda hella lame.

The other alternative is ultra (one hit), uppercut, LP super. Maybe this will give her a little more time to sparkle before the super instead of before the uppercut. But still, three sparkles tops. Weaksauce.

I wish she could juggle after three EX knuckles. Maybe it's possible, I dunno.

Also her super is kind of weird, the HP version is faster than the MP which is faster than the LP?

ultra (one hit), uppercut, LP super = 0 sparkles midscreen
ultra (one hit), uppercut, MP super = 1 corner sparkle

Lame.

With Viper's supers, you're trading speed for range. LP is the slowest but has the most range, HP is reversed. Also LP causes the most hit stun per hit so that's the one you want to use in trade combos. Aesthetically, i like the LP version best.

I just want to see EX Knuckle (trade), EX Knuckle (trade), EX Knuckle (crumple) -> whatever
or EX Knuckle (trade), EX Knuckle (crumple), EX Knuckle (?) -> any kind of juggle

Okay, i'll give it a shot. But so far the only thing that juggles after that is super. Cuz the first one crumples, the second one knocks down then juggles once, so at that point HP Thunder Knuckle is useless. Her normal ground pounds are always useless because their hit box is too low plus they probably have no juggle potential. And it looks like her ultra starter only has a juggle potential of one, because you can't connect it after two anti-air HP uppercuts.

The only legit thing with any hope of juggling is EX Burning Kick but it seems too slow.

Though she can do something like EX Thunder Knuckle, walk forward, c.HP xx EX ground pound xx EX Thunder Knuckle. If i put another one in front by trading or something, that's all her meter already. Might not look too bad.

You can also EX Thunder Knuckle for one hit after HP Thunder Knuckle, but i don't know if that would work mid-combo.

Well to elaborate this is the theory I had: Rose Spark get in front, Viper EX Knuckle trades with Rose LP, Viper EX Knuckle trades with Spark, EX Knuckle crumples, then do whatever combo off crumple.

Alternately I theorized EX Knuckle trades with LP, EX Knuckle crumples, EX Knuckle trades with fireball to allow enough time to juggle if possible (juggle may not be possible actually).

But this is just wind blowing, take with a grain of salt. I doubt any of it is possible due to slowness of the move plus huge range of motion during the move.

I'll do it if i can find a different setup. Already got one full-stage fireball setup in the video and might have another. One's more than enough, two's way over the limit. This isn't gonna work if it turns into Rolento. I can hear the complaints already.

Also fuck sparkles. It doesn't wanna work so i'm ditching the Dhalsim jump jab setup and going with something simpler / flashier / less common.

If Viper could do ultra to super, i think that'd be enough to kill Seth. Regular ultra is 540 damage, counterhit ultra is 567, and s.HP xx ultra is 525 damage (aka useless). Regular super is 300 damage and 240 damage at 80%.

Counterhit ultra + super would be 807 base damage. I'm 99% sure that super would juggle after all five hits of ultra and i'm not sure how lifebar-based damage reduction is gonna play out but i doubt Seth would survive. It kicks in during the last hit of counterhit ultra, which does 562 damage instead. The cool thing about her super is that the last hit does most of its damage at the end - 140 base. It might skip over the entire last chunk of reduction, doing 90% instead of 75%.

But the whole thing is moot because it's impossible. I don't even think the Rose setup gives her enough time to land from ultra. She doesn't even land on the fireball, much less land in front of it. If it's not possible with Rose then it's hella not possible on Seth.

Back to standard combos i guess.

Maj wrote:

onReload wrote:Yeah, JWong has referred to divekick -> s.LK, s.HP xx GT as one of his BnBs. I don't know Rufus frame data but you could just do FA3, dash up, difficult links to a cancelable normal xx GT, ultra

Nothing works dude. It's either s.LK, c.MK xx HP Galactic Tornado or c.LP, s.LK, s.HP xx HP Galactic Tornado. Maybe i'll flip a coin.

Too bad you don't have an EX Meter leftover... do you build up one Level? I doubt it, otherwise you could do something like Stand Short -> Low Jab -> Low Short -> Stand Jab, Crouch Forward XX EX Galactic Tornado.

Are you close enough to the corner? Maybe just do Short -> Short -> Short -> Roundhouse, Towards + Fierce, Ultra.

- James

I don't think it's possible to build meter during the combo because i still think meter building is penalized along with damage. If it's gradual like it seems, then i'd have to start the combo with the super to minimize the number of hits before opening up meter space, and it's just not worth it. Even then it would probably be impossible. The worst part about SF4 is everything looks encouraging until you get to the last part and every pixel is an uphill battle (along a vertical cliff).

Speaking of which, Viper is borrring. Every advantage she has is one-dimensional. All the good stuff is either a knockdown or doesn't work like you want it to or is inferior to a jump-in. Trade with MP Thunder Knuckle, backwards c.HP TK-feint-cancel, blah blah, all inferior to counterhit jump fierce. I'm two more ideas away from doing a ghetto infinite meter combo in Training Mode.

Like that meterless ground pound dash-cancel she has - where you superjump-cancel the ground pound, then Focus to cancel the jump then dash out of the Focus. Sounds great! What the hell are you supposed to do with it though? You still get your one juggle then either ultra, super, or EX moves. There isn't even enough time to dash forward and connect a lvl1 Focus Attack.

Either i don't get this character or it's no accident that all the Viper combo vids are identical.

Can't you just do seismo xx lvl 1 FA in the corner?

Yeah but then what? Ultra or HP Thunder Knuckle (but not both). And both variations are already in a video somewhere. You can do it midscreen too, but she already has ways of comboing into ultra and the problem is none of her tricks work together. It's just another dead end.

If I understand Viper correctly, ONLY the Seismo sets up a free Juggle, right? Fierce Thunder Knuckle has a Juggle Potential of 1, EX Burn Kick has Juggle Potential of 3, right? Or is it 4? And Ultra has a Juggle Potential of 1 as well.

So yeah, it sounds like whatever you do, you can't end it with anything exciting. EX Burn Kick is the move with the best Juggle, but landing that automatically negates any follow-up completely. What's the Juggle Potential of the Super? Not that it matters, really, considering you'd have no meter for it anyhow. Seismo has no ability to Juggle 'cause it hits too low. Hahaha, too bad Chun Li doesn't have her CvS2 problem in this game, otherwise you'd probably be able to infinitely Juggle her with Seismos.

Hmm. Interestingly enough, the character that requires the MOST finger dexterity for Combos seems to be the most limiting.

What's the frame data for Fierce Thunder Knuckle feints? What's the smallest amount of frames you can put a whole Fierce Thunder Knuckle feint in? Just wondering what kinds of feint Combos you could do, like Fuerte with Low Forward XX Run -> Stop, Low Forward etc. Everyone does Fierce XX Feint, Fierce... can you do it with other moves and get, like, three Low Forwards in a row into Super Jump Ultra or something?

Apologies if these are combos already in the video. ^_^

- James

The problem with juggle potential in SF4 is that a lot of moves have gradually increasing juggle potential for later hits. Functionally that adds extra startup when higher juggle potential is needed. I mean the EX Burning Kick does three ball hits then flame. I've never seen the flame whiff. Air EX Burning Kick hits on the 6th frame but the first hit is active for 2 frames. So if the juggle counter is at 1, i'm pretty sure that first hit doesn't connect, effectively extending the startup to 7 frames (plus however long it takes to jump).

No clue what the super's juggle potential is but it always works so maybe it's infinite.

Her feints cost around 10 or 11 frames, i think. Her low forward has good range but the problem is it only saves you one frame, cuz c.HP hits on the 8th frame and c.MK hits on the 7th. Once you solve that problem you run into the real problem of nothing comboing off low forward. EX ground pound doesn't work, flame kick doesn't work obviously. All you can do is MP/LP Thunder Knuckle.

You'd think with perfect spacing you could do c.MK xx MP Thunder Knuckle, c.MK but that move is weird. I couldn't figure it out. I tried meaty counterhit MP Thunder Knuckle using Rufus' HP super and c.MK still never linked. Either it has extra recovery or the timing is really weird.

Honestly I'm starting to think there is something really weird with her Knuckle and Rose's Spiral. I can't put my finger on it though because the only guesses I've had make zero sense.

I did some testing with mp thunder knuckle and figured out the move has a weird recovery. For example if you do C.hp XX MP Thunder Knuckle vs a crouching Akuma, Akuma's head flys way back so that the mp Knuckle hits meaty, but you still can't follow up with a c. lp like the frame data says you should. This suggests a recovery like cannon spike or blanka ball that has the same frame advantage no matter what frame it hits on, but it's easy to link a c.mp off meaty mp thunder knuckle and I do it all the time in matches so that can't be the case.

error1 wrote:the same frame advantage no matter what frame it hits on

Yes! That was what I was guessing. But how do you explain that? How does that make sense?

I mean, for Knuckle and Spiral.. it doesn't make sense to me yet it seems to be the case.

Another weird thing that kept happening was when i hit Guile with c.MK xx EX Thunder Knuckle at the absolute max range, both hits would land but she'd stop in front of Guile instead of behind him. Obviously this is way better for midscreen combos because you end up at point blank range. But it's also kinda useless since the EX Thunder Knuckle doesn't connect off c.MK and you can come up with better setups for a combo starting with EX Thunder Knuckle.

Maybe it would work off a lvl3 Focus Attack trade but for some reason i doubt it.