SF4 Biweekly TACV Series

[Maj]

Ken TACV reached 100 ratings with a 5.0 average! Wahoo nooch!

And i never asked anyone to rate it. And i'm never going to care about u2b ratings ever again. Man, those last two took forever. It was stuck at 98 for a long time, then at 99 for a couple of days. The Ryu episode got all the way up to 92 or 93 ratings before someone knocked it down to 4.99 and it's at 4.96 average / 123 ratings now. Dhalsim one was doomed from the start; never even got up to 25. It's at 4.91 average / 88 ratings now. Though at least Sim's not the lowest rated one, since Gief/Fuerte has 4.81 average / 59 ratings.

I'd like to thank all my friends who rate my videos 5* without thinking about what to rate them because ratings are the least productive waste of time of all time. And i'd like to thank the red Ken hivemind for their predictability and support. Take that, unruly u2b hivemind!

I found a similar thing with Dhalsim, dunno if I've said that already.

You found an OTG with Dhalsim? I don't think you've mentioned it yet.

[Doopliss]

I found a similar thing with Dhalsim, dunno if I've said that already.

You found an OTG with Dhalsim? I don't think you've mentioned it yet.

I meant a post-stun hit. Yoga fire -{stun}-xx 1 hit super.

[Maj]

Are you sure the Inferno isn't connecting before the Fire?

[Doopliss]

Yes, he is stunned during the super freeze.

[Maj]

Weird. Well, we definitely need to compile a list of these things. Dhalsim's the only case you've encountered?

[Doopliss]

Yes, and I was quite surprised. I have to try what happens when they die from the super XD

[MrWizard]

Ken TACV reached 100 ratings with a 5.0 average!

Why you so GDLK Maj?

[Maj]

Thank you sir. Now someone should go rate it 1* because that's the way these things ought to go.

(Btw where did that "gdlk" term/phrase originate? The East Coast hype machine? Haha i dunno, can't say i'm a huge fan of biblical slang.)

[Xenozip.]

I don't know. But wtf is ftw backwards. So kldg.

[Maj]

There are way too many SF4 vids out there. I always try to make sure none of my combos have been done before, but sometimes it takes way too long to sift through all the footage out there. I'm starting to think that the possibility of getting yelled at is probably in fact a probability or possibly even an inevitability.

Ah well, if someone accuses me of stealing their combos, i'll resolve the issue by asking them to give me an idea for the next TACV and then special thanksing them in it. Otherwise fuck it, i'm doing my best so i can't do much else.

[Pokey86]

People don't own combos this argument when on & on in DMC3 when i used to play that (for like a year & a half, pretty low fanbase & i started before alot) But then when things went on & less stuff could be discovered etc, some people ended up reusing peoples strategies... Then people who did them first would complain.

I started some of these strats (Quicksilver I-frames, One punching Nevan & a couple of cheapexploits/loops) I never really understood why people would bitch when people tried to claim the rights to combos or strategies... I mean if you made an AMV or combo video & someone stole part of it then fine... But if you were the first person to do Cl.HP -> EX Tatsu then i don't want to have to find your name & thank you for it. I mean combos arn't so farfetched to discover when you consider people make combos by just messing around. & every character has a limit.

You shouldn't even have to thank someone if you use there combo. You can if you want, i'd thank someone if they helped me come up with a combo or or inspired me in some way (Or gave me assistance in some way.)

[Xenozip.]

Maj, preaching to the choir. Back in the days of ansi art (hohoho) you'd get flamed and blacklisted for using the same ascii symbols in similar ways or colors. Grueling. grueling.

Pokey86, well I don't know who owns the MvC2 ROM combo other than ROM. I hear where you're coming from, really I do, but it's all a matter of style and level and limitations. If some one copied your style in DMC3 or any other game then the next level is for you to innovate some new shit that nobody has ever seen before even after people were copying you (to let everyone know what's up), and if that's not possible then that's either the game's limitation or your limitation.

I submit to you that you can indeed own a combo by being not just the first to discover/perform it but also the only one who could perform it when it was discovered. And you can own a combo by not just creating something totally unique but also creating something that blows peoples minds when those same people already tried their best to create something unique. And you can own a combo when people remember you for it for whatever reason.

But yes, you see, you can't take a combo's ownership yourself. Just because some one creates/performs something doesn't mean they own it. You can't own a combo just because you say you do and try to prove it, no. The ownership of a combo is given to you after you've made it by you-know-who and you-know-why (who should be the people who matter).

I admit it's all lowbrow and esoteric, but hey why else do we do what we do.

[Maj]

Even without getting into that whole argument, personally i want to give credit whenever someone's foot is on the line, simply because this whole thing seems more fun when we're being inclusive. Problem is there's sooooo much stuff out there and it's so incredibly poorly organized.

It's one thing if you're making a video based on one character, but even then i'm bound to miss something every now and then. But it's fucking impossible if you make a video featuring multiple characters. Especially this early in the game, when so much of SF4 is still an open frontier.

[Pokey86]

Snip

If i understand what you're saying, this is the core disagreement, some people feel if you do a mindblowing combo or display a strategy of meticulously devised skill, then you are entitled to proclaim its creation as your own. Even then i disagree, if that was the case, then some random bloke playing the game could do the same combo you did. Post it up & get shit on because it's not "His" combo, but what if he did do it? It's no more mine than it is his. This is why i disagree, if i come up with a strategy & people use it & i never get mentioned again till it gets to the extreme no one really new were it came from, then i wouldn't complain... I don't think strategies etc are set in stone enough to proclaim ownership in anyway. If you are the first to do it, then you'll still get the initial awe/amazement of seeing something new for the first time so it's not like you wouldn't benefit in any way.

Demanding respect everytime the subject arises is just egotistical & arrogant (Also a little pathetic...IMO)

I admit it's all lowbrow and esoteric, but hey why else do we do what we do.

This is another solid question... I couldn't fully say why i did it. I'd be lying & i think everyone else would be if they said they didn't do it for praise or responses at all... Though that can be the only reason, i don't feel it is for me. I enjoy it (But sometimes i hate it, like getting to the end of a set piece & fucking up or physical hardware problems) If i have something new i think it's good to distribute the knowledge.

The worst trait i think gamers or generally anyone can have is to devise a technique or strategy & not divulge it purely because you don't want people to know how you did it (For Rank purposes for example) I hate that, but i have friends who do that kind of thing, i don't hate them, just dislike that practice.

It's a sketchy subject, i disagree with alot of mindsets, but i certainly wouldn't hold it against people who are in opposition to my views. Just the way things are.

[Maj]

I think Xenozip was trying to say that "ownership" of a combo, just like respect, isn't taken - it's given. Doesn't happen that often but in this community it's usually legit when it does. Anytime i see a relaunch combo with CvS2 Kyosuke, i think "that's a Sai-Rec combo" and anytime i see Dhalsim jump over someone then s.HP to touch a projectile, i think "nice use of the TZW setup."

Of course someone else could have come up with those combos/setups eventually, but the point is they did it years before anyone else was even looking in that direction. That's worth noting i think, because we're actually a very small community. If jchensor, Kamui, and i hadn't made that Fun With CFE video, there's a good chance half of that stuff would never have been discovered or recorded. Not every game is lucky enough to get the insane worldwide exposure of SF4. For most games, one determined combo video maker really can make a difference.

Trust me, i hate it when people get credit for year-one concepts too. But eventually you get to a point where literally nobody is touching the game in Training Mode anymore and you're lucky to see a new combo video once a year. At that point if someone makes a major discovery, i think they deserve some credit.

[Pokey86]

Cheers, that xenozip explenations sounds alot more likely (Sorry for the misunderstanding xeno)

& i'lladmit, i admire late discoveries, there were one or two on DMC & some of them did surprise me

[Xenozip.]

Right, that's why I said the ownership of a combo is given to you by "you-know-who" (the community). It's given, not taken, like Maj said.

[Maj]

Okay nobody panic but i haven't started the Viper video yet. Next three days are going to suuuuuck!

Anyway it's beginning to annoy me how everything causes random expansion pushback before the move even connects. Like half the moves in the game push off during startup. With certain characters you can do standing jab, then standing short, then low jab, then low short from point blank range and end up at different distances after each one. It ruins or limits kind of a lot of combos and makes you have to test everything individually. Some moves look good in frame data but are actually terrible because they cause so much extra pushback.

[error1]

yah I know what you mean, like how seth can do c. short, c. jab, kicks but not c. jab, c. short, kicks. But it's easy enough to test each normal and estimate witch one causes the least pushback. The exception being some multi hit normals where the first often causes no pushback.

[Maj]

Damn, looks like Rufus' EX Galactic Tornado vacuum is useless. It doesn't do damage, doesn't count as a hit on the combo counter, you can't combo after FADC, and you can only connect lvl1 EX FA because lvl2 FA is too slow.

Only weird thing i found was that slightly outside max range, the vacuum whiffs at first and then it works when he does the palm part. I guess the vacuum gets a little range boost at that point, but you gotta be way too far for the palm to connect. If you want to see what it looks like, start full screen away and whiff s.LK x9 then do it against Rose.

Oh yeah, and you can do EX vacuum xx HP super from outside palm range, but of course that's too much meter.

[Maj]

So how much does this suck? If you do far s.HK, LP Galactic Tornado (one hit) xx LP super (two hits, LP Soul Spark interrupt) with Rufus, nothing connects afterwards! Even though Rose recovers standing, the juggle counter is somehow still active. So she's immune to everything except ultra, another super (which is illegal due to meter), and the palm part of EX Galactic Tornado (which is surprising but again illegal).

Stupid character.

Of course if you avoid launching Rose before the super, you can continue with a ground combo. But the whole point of this gimmick was to set up another ground combo after a launcher. It's helluva less amusing if you stay grounded the whole time. Bleh.

[onReload]

So how much does this suck? If you do far s.HK, LP Galactic Tornado (one hit) xx LP super (two hits, LP Soul Spark interrupt) with Rufus, nothing connects afterwards! Even though Rose recovers standing, the juggle counter is somehow still active. So she's immune to everything except ultra, another super (which is illegal due to meter), and the palm part of EX Galactic Tornado (which is surprising but again illegal).

Stupid character.

Of course if you avoid launching Rose before the super, you can continue with a ground combo. But the whole point of this gimmick was to set up another ground combo after a launcher. It's helluva less amusing if you stay grounded the whole time. Bleh.

Ahh damn that would have been a genius way to get mileage out of that super interrupt...sucks. Any good ideas for ground combos? I was debating frapsing one ('cause i mentioned its possibility) but I was gonna wait 'til your video was up to see if you came up with something.

Also, out of curiosity, have you gotten her LP Soul Spark to interrupt Rufus after he jumps over her? I don't think it would affect her aerial state, but it would look cooler and affect spacing.

[Xenozip.]

Weird. Can you throw her? And on that note, can you actually combo airthrows outside of crumple or combo Cammy's air hooligan or post-KO airthrow? Can you do anything after teching an airthrow?

Rufus really seems like he was designed with very specific combos in mind and so they must have put a strict limiter in place.

[Maj]

Also, out of curiosity, have you gotten her LP Soul Spark to interrupt Rufus after he jumps over her?

Nah hitsun is barely long enough for him to land and do the finisher. There's no time to combo afterwards if you do it that way, so it's way better to get him before he jumps. Unless you're trying to interrupt the last hit, which doesn't seem possible cuz he takes so damn long to get over her. Doopliss' Dhalsim/Seth trick doesn't seem to work with Rose/Rufus either, probably because the super finisher doesn't count as a projectile.

Anyway i don't have a ground combo in mind but i'll think of something because i kind of have to. Everyone wants to see this damn thing for some reason. Two people asked for it on youtube, one commented on the blog about it, and one emailed me.

The good news is after the interrupt, there's hella time to do whatever you want. I'll probably end up doing lvl3 Focus Attack then some other nonsense. But if you want to capture it yourself, you should try the juggle version then whiff like 3 divekicks through her then ultra. It would look pretty stylish if Rufus wasn't style kryptonite.

Weird. Can you throw her? And on that note, can you actually combo airthrows outside of crumple or combo Cammy's air hooligan or post-KO airthrow? Can you do anything after teching an airthrow?

Nope, can't throw either. I've never seen any airthrows comboed outside of crumple stun. I've even tried air throwing after trading with Vega's EX wall jump, but i'm thinking his wall grab might not even be a real throw like Gen's KKK stance super/ultra.

Post-KO properties are largely unknown. I was planning on testing them when someone picked Cammy but that hasn't happened yet.

[error1]

Bummer but it is a long pause, possibly time enough to taunt +LV3 fa. Have you tried just the far hk or j. hk super? being in that free juggle state might let you hit with a Focus, FA's have a juggle limit of 2 right?

[Maj]

Nah, Focus Attacks have zero juggle potential. Otherwise you'd be able to do stuff like cancel Ryu's DP into FA and have it connect.

If there's time to waste, i'd rather jump back and whiff a divekick instead of taunting. Anyway the problem is that the two super hits count on the juggle counter. If you do far s.HK, LP Galactic Tornado (one hit) xx LP super (two hits) then the juggle counter is at two (because far s.HK is a free juggle setup so LP Galactic Tornado counts as the knockdown). You can't really do anything at this point.

If you do far s.HK, LP super (two hits) then the juggler counter is at one, so you can do LP Snake Strike which will hit once on the way down because that last part has a juggle potential of two. It's actually not a bad way to start the combo except that it pushes you back and only gives you +5 frame advantage to work with (as opposed to the lvl3 Focus Attack you'd get if you stayed grounded). Unfortunately MP/HP Snake Strike whiff because they make it over Rose into the corner.

I dunno, i haven't decided where i'm going with this yet but i'll try a bunch of stuff and go with whatever looks the best. If i can find a way to get two hits before juggling the super then i'll go that way. There's still a lot of elaborate stuff i haven't tried yet. If not then i'll keep her grounded.

Rufus only has two free juggle setups: the first hit of j.HK and far s.HK (which doesn't work if it hits an airborne opponent). He can do far s.HK, j.HK (one hit), c.LP but i haven't been able to land anything slower than that. So i'd need some kind of meaty setup for s.HK which shouldn't be that hard to do but you never know cuz we're racing a fireball here.

The good news is that Rufus can cross into the corner with j.HK which will give him more space to get both hits of the super out before the fireball arrives. But yeah, won't know until i try and even then we're losing the corner.

[Xenozip.]

Rufus only has two free juggle setups: the first hit of j.HK and far s.HK (which doesn't work if it hits an airborne opponent). He can do far s.HK, j.HK (one hit), c.LP but i haven't been able to land anything slower than that. So i'd need some kind of meaty setup for s.HK which shouldn't be that hard to do but you never know cuz we're racing a fireball here.

Oh right, Rufus has a lot of character-specific stuff unfortunately.

Like against Boxer he can do far HK into 2-hit j.HK dp+MP Ultra

And against most characters doing far HK dp+MP doesn't hit on the last punch of the DP but against Guile it will, giving plenty of time to Ultra. And there was some stupid setup I was doing with far HK far HK dp+LP Ultra or something. And he has juggle potential off close LK~HK target combo but I don't know if it's any better than far HK.

[error1]

can he do j. hk 1st hit -> j.hk 1st hit -> super like he was ryu?

[Maj]

Theoretically he can, but i think that's asking too much of the setup cuz that's two slow jumps then a super. But i'll try it, depending on how fast i can get Rose under him. I'll try trading far s.HK with Rose's jab too but i don't think that's going to help much because the recovery on s.HK is already fast. It has a ton of startup though, so i can't get it to combo off a jump attack, not even counterhit. Pretty much the definition of uncooperative.

F+HP and LK -> HK are both simple knockdowns but they're not free juggle setups. Right now the basic combo is looking like blah blah, super (two hits), LP Snake Strike (one hit), s.LK -> s.HK, MP Snake Strike (three hits), ultra but a lot of it depends on how i start it and whether i end up in the corner.

After this one i'm gonna try to do one more Rufus combo, with whichever one of these ideas seems promising:

Hella damage: far s.HK, F+HP, EX Snake Strike, ultra worked against Seth but it's not enough and doesn't want to be expanded
j.HK nonsense: you can get two hits out of j.HK against standing opponents and you can do air-to-air j.HK (two hits), j.HK (second hit)
ultra trade: desk told me that trading the last hit of whiff ultra against a jump attack puts them in weird air reel

So i'll go with whichever one of these works out then do three Viper combos and i think that should be enough.

[Doopliss]

I fount that too, managed to connect another ultra or EX snake strike. Couldn't try it much more though, it was too hard to set up.