Anybody know this stuff offhand? Short answers are fine. No need to waste your time going into detail.
1) Comboing into air throws only works in COTA, MSH, and XSF right? It stopped working in MSF and beyond, correct?
2) What are the rules for comboing throws in the Marvel series? I know you only get two throws per combo. Do you have to grab them in the last frame of air stun?
3) Is it impossible to backdash while there's an attack onscreen? It seems that anytime i tried to backdash in MSF while the opponent was doing an attack, my character would get stuck in preblock animation. Trying to backdash with PPP would make the character do fierce.
Random Lazy Questions
I don't play MvC2, but I recall some one doing comboing multiple airthrows with Cammy.
At first I thought maybe it was a doublejump into airthrow while the opponent recovered, but the combo count incremented.
Although, tech hits are free IIRC so there's not point doing it very often AFAIK.
At first I thought maybe it was a doublejump into airthrow while the opponent recovered, but the combo count incremented.
Although, tech hits are free IIRC so there's not point doing it very often AFAIK.
Looks like Jolly Ranchers & Baskin's Sherbet.
* Disclaimer - I THINK most of that is right. ;^)
1 - Comboing into airthrows off normal hitstuns stopped working after XSF. Comboing into airthrows from the stay-in-place-and-wiggle-in-the-air hitstun induced by certain moves (the middle hits of Weapon X, Guile's air super, Sabretooth's supers, Charlie's rush super, Tron's trap gun, etc) works in everything up to and including MvC2. There is one frame when they recover from this hitstun into air neutral state where you can airthrow them and it counts on the combometer. There are also other specific special cases, see below.
2 - It differs. COTA you pretty much throw them whenever they are in air reel and you've recovered, although this mostly applies to knockdown hits. MSH, XSF on the last frame of air stun. Also in MSH and XSF, pretty much any hitstun resulting from a throw can be thrown at any point (MSH CapAm kick throw to airthrow, XSF Ken roll throw to air throw, XSF Dhalsim corner noogie to super, etc). Frame after wiggle-stun for everything else.
3 - Any attack in vs games at any range puts you into preblock, hence why Suki-cancel and that weird superjump Up-Back thing in XSF work. So yes, it should be impossible to backdash. This is not the case for airdashes - in some games you can, and in some games you only can if you have already used up your normal-jump action and therefore can't block.
Note - in MvC2, if the assist is still in hitstun you can "combo" an airthrow on the point char (i.e. launch assist, sj and airthrow point) since any hitstun counts for a combo. You can also use various combo-counter glitches (Venom/BBH for the most part) to make it look as if throws combo when they do not. Derek Bogus is [in]famous in my book for doing cheating crap like that.
Mike Z
1 - Comboing into airthrows off normal hitstuns stopped working after XSF. Comboing into airthrows from the stay-in-place-and-wiggle-in-the-air hitstun induced by certain moves (the middle hits of Weapon X, Guile's air super, Sabretooth's supers, Charlie's rush super, Tron's trap gun, etc) works in everything up to and including MvC2. There is one frame when they recover from this hitstun into air neutral state where you can airthrow them and it counts on the combometer. There are also other specific special cases, see below.
2 - It differs. COTA you pretty much throw them whenever they are in air reel and you've recovered, although this mostly applies to knockdown hits. MSH, XSF on the last frame of air stun. Also in MSH and XSF, pretty much any hitstun resulting from a throw can be thrown at any point (MSH CapAm kick throw to airthrow, XSF Ken roll throw to air throw, XSF Dhalsim corner noogie to super, etc). Frame after wiggle-stun for everything else.
3 - Any attack in vs games at any range puts you into preblock, hence why Suki-cancel and that weird superjump Up-Back thing in XSF work. So yes, it should be impossible to backdash. This is not the case for airdashes - in some games you can, and in some games you only can if you have already used up your normal-jump action and therefore can't block.
Note - in MvC2, if the assist is still in hitstun you can "combo" an airthrow on the point char (i.e. launch assist, sj and airthrow point) since any hitstun counts for a combo. You can also use various combo-counter glitches (Venom/BBH for the most part) to make it look as if throws combo when they do not. Derek Bogus is [in]famous in my book for doing cheating crap like that.
Mike Z
Cool, thanks. That pretty much answers everything. The backdash issue was a bit puzzling to me because CvS2 still lets you backdash while you're in preblock. It's harder, in the sense that you kinda have to do it slower and hold B for longer, but it usually works.
For the Marvel games, there's a workaround using macros. You can dash forward and then backdash like two frames later, but it's kind of a hassle and even losing those two frames can suck. There's some weird shit in MSF where if you jump and then push B+attack while the opponent is attacking, your character kinda stops at that vertical height and doesn't go up any higher. It reminds me of some old combos in classic ozy videos.
Anyway i'll see if i can put all this knowledge to use, hopefully tonight-tomorrow.
For the Marvel games, there's a workaround using macros. You can dash forward and then backdash like two frames later, but it's kind of a hassle and even losing those two frames can suck. There's some weird shit in MSF where if you jump and then push B+attack while the opponent is attacking, your character kinda stops at that vertical height and doesn't go up any higher. It reminds me of some old combos in classic ozy videos.
Anyway i'll see if i can put all this knowledge to use, hopefully tonight-tomorrow.
Actually i'm fairly certain that doesn't work in the older games from the Marvel series. It doesn't seem to work in MSF. They probably fixed it for MvC2, since it works in CvS2 and both are on Naomi hardware. Capcom has a pattern of tweaking super-basic engine rules when they upgrade to new hardware.
Another random question ...
4) In XSF, i've seen people airblock something, pushblock, and then superjump in mid-air. Does this only happen in XSF? Is pushblock necessary? Does it only happen during normal jump, during superjump, or both?
That's it for now. I dunno why i'm bothering to number a single question. Then again, why not?
4) In XSF, i've seen people airblock something, pushblock, and then superjump in mid-air. Does this only happen in XSF? Is pushblock necessary? Does it only happen during normal jump, during superjump, or both?
That's it for now. I dunno why i'm bothering to number a single question. Then again, why not?
You can do it in a superjump or normal jump, just pushblock and hold up, or up/towards etc and you will superjump.Maj wrote:Another random question ...
4) In XSF, i've seen people airblock something, pushblock, and then superjump in mid-air. Does this only happen in XSF? Is pushblock necessary? Does it only happen during normal jump, during superjump, or both?
That's it for now. I dunno why i'm bothering to number a single question. Then again, why not?
Its best use is to get out of guardbreak, say if player 2's 2nd character is coming in and player 1 storm throws a lightning ball (j.mp), and then a s.hk when she lands for a guardbreak, when she throws the lightning ball at you, just pushblock + up and you escape landing on the s.hk.
It only works in XvSF.
You know, I've seen you talk shit about XvSF a lot of times now, I've never said anything befor and have just let it go, next time you say XvSF or XvSF combos are stupid, just remember that your videos are stupid to some people to, for example me.
(flame stuff)
/Flame off.
(flame stuff)
/Flame off.
Last edited by Toxy on Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
explained how I was joking*
/end
/end
Last edited by Magnetro on Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:15 am, edited 3 times in total.
Good job resolving everything so quickly and efficiently.
ToXY: I'm surprised that you thought Magnetro was serious. He always makes "MvC2 is superior to *" jokes anytime the opportunity arises. Dunno, i think they're usually pretty funny. Though i guess sometimes it's not obvious if you haven't noticed the pattern.
Anyway, no harm done. Moving on ...
5) Can Gief combo after his MP throw in the Marvel series? I've seen a couple of videos where it's done using the van in the Manhattan stage. It's also a safe bet that he can throw people into assists in MSF and beyond. But is there any straightforward way to do it? If you do the MP throw and hold U, it makes Gief superjump as though he had done a launcher, but they recover by the time he gets high enough to connect with anything.
ToXY: I'm surprised that you thought Magnetro was serious. He always makes "MvC2 is superior to *" jokes anytime the opportunity arises. Dunno, i think they're usually pretty funny. Though i guess sometimes it's not obvious if you haven't noticed the pattern.
Anyway, no harm done. Moving on ...
5) Can Gief combo after his MP throw in the Marvel series? I've seen a couple of videos where it's done using the van in the Manhattan stage. It's also a safe bet that he can throw people into assists in MSF and beyond. But is there any straightforward way to do it? If you do the MP throw and hold U, it makes Gief superjump as though he had done a launcher, but they recover by the time he gets high enough to connect with anything.
5 - Using assists, vs. XSF Dhalsim recovery, or using something like the van that modifies the opponent's trajectory = yes (he even has it in MvC2, QCB+Jab whee Marvel trivia).
Alone = no.
Although in some (all?) of the versions of XSF if you did a fast early sj.Jab after the throw, it was unblockable or you had to block it a random direction or something...and actually now that I mention it I dimly remember comboing after it on Juggernaut, but that may be untrue.
Isn't this throw also untechable?
Random note: CPU Zangief in XSF can cancel this throw directly into standing attacks, but the CPU can do that with everyone (launch->s.Jab as a combo). XSF CPU Zangief can also do chains on the ground (c.Short->s.Strong->c.Fierce FTW).
This thread is the most fun I've had on SH since the CvS2 Reversal bug,
Mike Z
Alone = no.
Although in some (all?) of the versions of XSF if you did a fast early sj.Jab after the throw, it was unblockable or you had to block it a random direction or something...and actually now that I mention it I dimly remember comboing after it on Juggernaut, but that may be untrue.
Isn't this throw also untechable?
Random note: CPU Zangief in XSF can cancel this throw directly into standing attacks, but the CPU can do that with everyone (launch->s.Jab as a combo). XSF CPU Zangief can also do chains on the ground (c.Short->s.Strong->c.Fierce FTW).
This thread is the most fun I've had on SH since the CvS2 Reversal bug,
Mike Z
It wasn't a funny joke, but you're taking that out of context. We certainly weren't talking about your videos. We were talking about generic 3 minute XSF combos. You gotta admit there's a lot of them out there. Plus given the topic of that particular conversation, it makes total sense that we were ruling out 3 minute combos.Toxy wrote:To me this type of thing doesn't sound like a joke.
Anyway no matter how you interpret that statement, there's no way you could conclude that we were hating on all XSF combo videos. The combo engine is so free in that game, that you can get away with almost anything. Consequently, everyone ends up with 200-hit combos and even if you have 10 absolutely amazing things happen in that combo (which is unheard-of), you'll still have 150 hits of filler. That gets repetitive after a while. I mean, that's just the reality of the situation.
As someone who's been making XSF combo videos for years, you already know this fact. That's our only substantial complaint against XSF. I'm sure that's something you have to contend with every time you make a video, and for the most part you do a great job. Beyond that, i totally enjoy watching oldschool Marvel series videos.
If you combine this one complaint with Magnetro's unbridled love for em vee cee two, you get careless comments like the one above. But come on now, you gotta realize that nobody was genuinely hating on XSF. It was nothing more than a passing grumpy comment. People make grumpy comments about every game.
If you have a problem with everyone's perception of XSF, make a thread about it. By all means, go ahead. That sounds like it would be an interesting discussion.
The weird thing about doing it against Sim is that it causes his teleport recovery to happen falling down. I mean, after getting hit in the air, Sim usually stops mid-air and goes through his whole teleport animation before he starts falling. But he just keeps descending after Gief's MP throw (at least in XSF). I was having trouble comboing anything after it, but i probably just didn't try hard enough.Mike Z wrote:Using assists, vs. XSF Dhalsim recovery, or using something like the van that modifies the opponent's trajectory = yes.
Gief may be able to combo after it against Juggernaut, just cuz he's so fat. Haven't gotten a chance to try that yet. The problem is that they are so high in the air, that Gief can't get to them before they recover. Juggernaut's hitbox size would definately help, for this reason.
CPU Zangief sounds brutal. Too bad we can't really manipulate him into doing anything complex. I always kinda wondered if i could get CPU Guile to do hella cheater no-charge combos, but it would probably be really difficult because CPU characters are resistant to doing fancy combos.
If you poked around in the memory of the emu long enough, you could figure out which flags the CPU uses to do their moves, then go through and set them frame-by-frame. Admittely you could do this to human chars as well, but I'd stick to the CPU so people know what's up.
I did actually have XSF Chun do launch->Jab->launch->Jab like 10x on me as a combo, but that was only once in all these years (it was in an arcade, too).
Mike Z
I did actually have XSF Chun do launch->Jab->launch->Jab like 10x on me as a combo, but that was only once in all these years (it was in an arcade, too).
Mike Z