SSF2T: HDR combos

[Maj]

Your clips are coming out monochrome? That's weird. I've never tried capturing from Xbox360 before but why wouldn't a simple S-Video cable work?

As for making a vid, i'm feeling way too swamped at the moment to attempt one. Too much other stuff planned.

[desk]

I capture footage by recording straight to dvd. To avoid lag I have to split the signal to my tv too and my dvd player doesn't like NTSC input. If the game supported PAL-50hz like the beta did I'd be fine. Unfortunately it doesn't and I have no way around this, 'cos I don't have any other capturing equipment.

[ShinjiGohan]

What exactly are you settings?

Reason why I ask is that in my experience if you have it set to record in say s-video but you only have composite hooked up, youi'll get monochrome color (happened on my video card, and apparently also to a co-worker who was spliting his 360 output to his TV and to his VCR or something).

but outside of that, I'm not sure :-

[Maj]

Not one, but two random unknown people posting HDR combos over at SRK:

Remix combo vids thread on SRK

Can't wait until they run out of day one material and graduate to goodness. I believe!

[fullmetalross]

Yeah I saw those! Its cool they are trying shit out though. I want to see some crazy shit for this game as well. Wish I could mess with it some.

[desk]

Not sure if there's a better place to post hdr discussion but I quit the uk forum I used to use and I don't feel like posting on SRK. So this is where I'm probably going to be posting HDR stuff from now on.

From sirlin on guile's new super motion...

... some deep mysterious property of ST’s engine saves us. I cannot figure why this is true, but you cannot combo normal attacks into Guile’s super using this new motion. If you try, you will always get a flash kick instead.

This is just flat out not true. Worse still, it's really, really easy to test and disprove.

Quickly changing the subject. My head is actually going to explode if I don't find a way to capture footage soon. If I mentioned earlier I didn't want to do another vid, I've completely changed my mind. I'm pretty sure I have enough combo/set-up idea's to justify a full video but every day that goes past, other people are more likely to discover the things I want to document lol.

What really sucks is, I actually have an old capture card from when my PC died but it's lost in my house somewhere

[Maj]

Dude if you actually want to make a video, i'm am so down to paypal you $100 for a new capture card. Consider it a Christmas present (because it's less shady than calling it a bribe).

[desk]

that would actually be the best xmas present ever.

I just found out a bunch of stuff in my mission to solve my capturing problems. Apparently, my rubbish UK 360 will never actually output in true NTSC. Either I plug it into my monitor for awesome high-def joy or I use my composite thing and I have the choice of PAL-50 and PAL-60. HDRemix will only allow me to use PAL-60 and NOTHING likes PAL-60. I've read that most capture cards won't even display this properly because it's neither 50hz PAL nor 60hz NTSC but somewhere in between.

I'll probably stumble across my old capture card sooner or later anyway and I've heard that there are some things you can dl that, although not perfect, will allow you to capture the feed in some way. If all of that fails you can fully expect either a) a black and white combo movie or b) a ghetto handycam version.

Thanks anyway though maj and happy xmas

EDIT: Anyone have any opinions on this?

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=170255

I tried to probe goryus in another thread but I'm not sure if he's around.

[Maj]

Good luck in your ongoing battle against technology. Let me know if it doesn't work out, cuz i am totally down to contribute to the cause.

As for the Akuma thing, ah who knows. None of the match videos linked in that thread were convincing. That one Guile player had most of those games won until he decided to throw them away, one by one, in a different fashion every time. Count how many times he has super meter at the end of a round and still lets Akuma throw an air fireball at him.

Akuma certainly does seem overpowered at a glance, but broken enough to justify a ban? I'm not convinced yet. People keep forgetting that Shotos are the magic exception to the "mirror matches suck" rule. If everyone picks CE Bison or CE Guile, those matches are ugly guaranteed. I do not want to see Tokido's Vega against Sirlin's Vega. Ever. On the other hand even if Akuma is broken, i would not at all mind seeing Tokido's Akuma against any good Cali Shoto player's Akuma.

So yeah, who knows?

[desk]

I have to say, I don't like talk of him being banned 'cos he's the only 'new' character. Having said that, talk of nerfing annoys me even further, lol. Simply because he's the first character I picked and I've been working out loads of strats for him ever since.

People played Hyper despite CE bison and akuma is nowhere near as brain dead as him. I mean, the argument that he should be removed just because he'll make tournaments more boring, rather than because he breaks the game is something different but, looking at the big picture, actually pretty valid IMO. Japan's ST scene is still as exciting and entertaining as ever. This, in my view, has a lot to do with the supposed 'soft ban' on O. Sagat.

I'm not sure what my point is, lol. Basically I don't want him removed (yet) but I also don't want everyone using him... I think...

[ShinjiGohan]

I tested out the ascii program pad on my PS3 via the pelican PS2-PS3 adapter and it worked. You couldn't really see the LED's too well (not enough power I guess), but the programmed macros still worked.

Just thought some of you wanted to know.

I ordered the inpin converter and I'll see if that has any better luck with getting all the LEDs to light up properly (besides I needed a 2nd PS2 to PS3 converter anyway).

But if motivated I'll try some combos in HDR and SF4.

[desk]

I have chosen the music I want on the vid and I pretty much have everything planned out now... I'm toying with the idea of a preview vid too but I'm getting slightly ahead of myself, lol.

I haven't moved onto prog pads just yet but that's good to know. Is there any reason it wouldn't be the same when using ps2 > 360?

[desk]

i'm back in business!! Finally stumbled across my old capture card, the recording quality isn't great but I'm not getting anything better any time soon so I'm just going ahead and getting all of the clips. Even though it's the holidays I still think this is going to be the quickest CV I ever make. From getting the first clip to having a finished edit is going to be hella. Just because I've been waiting to do it for a few weeks.

yay!

[desk]

One or two posts have just popped up on SRK talking about juggling with honda's hand slap's.

Basically there's a new state that I think is exclusive to HDR in which you are falling down but you can be juggled with absolutely any move, not just those that normally juggle. Guile, Sagat and Honda can all put you into this state, so 'technically' they can put you in a situation in which they can juggle you with whatever they want. I say technically because, if anyone figures out a way to actually do it (even in a combo vid), I'd be very surprised.

In order to make their supers connect with every hit more consistently, a new falling state was introduced. Basically you are hit into the air but you fall down very quickly (as if you were dragged down by the corner of the screen). Try doing Guile's super and you can see it happen after the first FK (or after the knee in sagat's super). During this time you are vulnerable to any attack. However, you can't really take advantage of this because...

a) you're in the middle of a super
b) you're invincible until you connect with the next set of hits (which puts the opponent into the regular jugglable state).

The 2nd point means you can't simply trade, be hit out of the super, and then hit them... which is annoying.

Now, the first hit of honda's super, when used as an anti-air, also creates this state. Also, it is possible to be hit out of the super before honda leaves the ground, meaning you can trade, remain standing and go nuts (if you trade and fall down you don't have time to hit with anything).

I have a cunning little preview video ready (not including anything I just mentioned) but youtube refuses to upload it. Hopefully I'll link to it later.

EDIT: the other weird thing about this is that it's the only knockdown move that negates the corner-object-launch thing. Where you fly high even if you're back is to the corner.

Preview vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kNMGgNLxR0&fmt=18

EDIIT: I was making that whole juggle thing hella more complicated than it should have been, I just found a sweet set-up!

[Maj]

Haha, that's so ghetto. They couldn't make the opponent fall faster without putting them in a free juggle state?

Well, at least HDR Guile will have something interesting in the fancy combos department. Maybe i'll have to put STHD in the next update of my Guile vid after all. Looking forward to seeing your juggle setup and definitely looking forward to seeing this:

rah! I just landed forward flame kick x 4! (1-hit each).

[desk]

Yeah, I'm disappointed that you can do it without a fancy trade set-up (it's not super easy but it's a straight forward set-up). It looks pretty crazy, just because you've never been able to do it in any other sf2 game before. A weird sound happens when you do it as well

The thing I mentioned about honda's super as an anti-air was incorrect. It doesn't have to be an anti-air. His super, as far as I can tell, has zero juggle potential, but obviously when you do it, you can get a maximum of 3 hits. The first 2 hits are always free juggles, so if you can recover while one of these is in effect you can do whatever you want.

[desk]

So maj, is it cool if I use a variation on that boxer chain cancel thing you found, in this video? I just got totally carried away and didn't think to ask.

It's coming along very nicely, hopefully I should meet my self imposed deadline of Jan 1st.

[Maj]

Yeah, of course. It's cool to use any findings that i post outside of my own project threads. Since my videos generally revolve around a theme, most of that random obscure stuff will never get recorded anyway.

[desk]

cool, thanks man. It's basically a short, ghetto, charge partition looking thing that I've randomly put in the middle of the vid.

If I get it done before the 1st I'll post up a 'preview'.

[desk]

lol, I was going to post a preview but I'm just releasing it early

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-GDR3V8oCM&fmt=6

and a version with notes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MeiXjv-mQo&fmt=18

[Maj]

Great, great video. Very nicely done, sir. I watched it first with commentary which was hella distracting while informative, but i think it made the second viewing without commentary even more enjoyable.

Bison fake slide combo at 0:59 . Nice job getting four juggle hits out of Chun's air SBK at 1:32. Crossup claw dive setup at 1:36 is so cheap. The two Honda combos at 2:17 make me laugh. Can't believe the uselessness of Honda's super finally paid off.

Why is Chun submerged at 1:04? Is that caused by her DF+HK neckbreaker?

And of course, the way you set up that fourth Fei Long flame kick at 2:26 was beautiful. It's crazy how that move creates separation in the corner.

Any chance you'll post a downloadable version?

[desk]

Thanks dude. I was actually really surprised when I realised you could hit 5 times with the SBK.

The chun thing happens when you hit her out of an SBK shortly before she gains the invincibility from her recovery (just as she's hitting the ground). I think some more interesting stuff will come from it but I didn't test it very much.

probably no downloadable version because my capturecard/pc is incapable of recording on anything but the lamest settings, lol. Making the footage less that great.

Yeah the fei combo is weird. It wouldn't work without the corner fall delay thing happening twice.

EDIT: I'd be happy to send the video file over if you want it? I assumed you meant an 'official release'.

[Maj]

Yes please, if it's not too much trouble. If you can upload it temporarily or throw it up on any random filehost, that'd be great. Can't be worse than blurtube; doesn't matter what you used to capture it. You could draw every frame with a box of crayons and it would still look better.

[jchensor]

Hey, Desk.

Can I get a local copy of the vid as well? Do you have some super awesome high-quality version I can nab? ^_^ I really enjoy the video and am glad to see both you and Goryus trying to utilize all of the new broken things Sirlin introduced into the game. I just read this thread for the first time today, as I haven't been back to these forums in a long time due to laziness (it was Maj's quiz that really prompted me back... I become totally obsessed with things like that). And I totally realize now that I completely repeated, almost word for word, what you said about Guile and Sagat's super on SRK. Sorry about that.

But yeah, the video is awesome. And that new Juggle State is totally ridiculous, as is the hard coding to make Fei Long's Flame Kick juggle up to four times. I know Maj and I are HUGE sticklers for "system-wide Combo Systems" (ugh, sorry about the redundancy there, but I can't think of a better way to describe it) as opposed to the "Mortal Kombat" style of Combo Systems, where everything is just hard-coded specifically for characters. I really wish Sirlin didn't do that to Fei Long. AND I hate the new Juggle State thing with a passion. Mostly because it introduced anti-air Supers that can hit fully. There are plenty of other ways to make Guile and Sagat's super better without making them work as anti-airs. And Honda, HONDA of all people, didn't need an anti-air Super that does 50%. Dear lord.

Anyhow, now I'm just ranting, and all I wanted to do was congratulate you on an awesome Combo Video and to request a copy of it. ^_^

- James

[desk]

Many thanks dude Unfortunately there is no HQ version, my ghetto PC can't capture in any half decent resolution. I'll upload it tomorrow probably, so anyone who wants it can get a copy.

Cool to hear your opinions on the game. I got the impression at evo that you were fairly 'in the know' during development. I've already tried to squeeze as much info out of goryus as possible, lol but I'd really like to hear you opinion on the tiers and if you have any view on akuma being banned from tournament play.

On that subject, I'm hella confused with the 'new' akuma stuff that's being posted on srk. I get the impression no one (except me, lol) put any time into learning him, or simply, no one who did posts on srk.

[jchensor]

Haha. Yeah, basically, all during ST HD Remix's development, I spent the entire time yelling at Sirlin. I hate painting him like a bad person, but man, I disagreed with many of his changes, most of which I had logical arguments against and most of his responses were very totally unsatisfactory for me. It's because we have two completely different mindsets. Well, for one thing, I'm a very emotional person, so when I argue, I get all heated and look and sound very childish and it discredits any logic I may have. Meanwhile, Sirlin is super logical and calm and despises unwarranted emotion, so I'm sure I looked particularly bad to him. Also, the way he approached things was not a good one, IMO, because he is a very NON-TECHNICAL person. I honestly think he should have had someone like NKI at his side for EVERY CHANGE he made. He made one change to Chun that he swore would NOT open up new Combo possibilities, and NKI proved him wrong, like, instantly (and totally sorry for sounding like some Californian idiot with all the "likes" and "totallys" that I just realized that I am, like, totally overusing). NKI was able to do the supposed "impossible" Combo like 10 times in a row. Sirlin needed a really good Combo person there, and Goryus got onto the project far too late in its cycle to show Sirlin a lot of negative effects.

I mean, you and I both showed him the Devil's Reverse into Jump Strongs into Super like right away at Evo so he took it out because he didn't want that much damage off the Devil's Reverse. I can't imagine how he wouldn't have ever thought of it in the first place. And it's funny, because the Juggle after the Devil's Reverse was probably the #2 top thing I disagreed with and yelled at Sirlin about for a LONG time... not just because of the Combo possibility, but because of, to make a long story short, "principles" so to speak (I won't bore you with my arguments on principles for Fighting Games... lol). Same thing with Ken's Double Strong Uppercut in the beta. You stated you couldn't imagine how no one could have found that as it would have been the first thing you tried. Admittedly, I didn't find it in the TWO WHOLE DAYS I played the game, but we weren't really using Ken much because we were too busy testing out other characters like Honda and T.Hawk in the sessions I played. But something like that should have been found right away as it's so obvious. When he told me that Fei Long's Flame Kicks Juggled, I told him that Fei's Super into Flame Kick would work mid-screen over e-mail without even needing to see the game, so he changed the last hit of Fei's Super into that quick knock down version (which was later changed to the version that just doesn't allow Juggles after you found the weird free Juggle bug at Evo). There was just a lot of things I don't think he thought of, not because he's a bad person or anything, but mainly because he just doesn't have the Combo Maker's mindset. And we tend to see things and try to use them for situations they weren't meant for (the Fake Wall Dive for Vega, for example, became an instant runaway tool for me by Buffering into it, not a Fake Wall Dive). I think it was also you on the Forums that instantly thought the Fake Fireball would be better for Roman Cancels than a Fake Fireball. That was my first thought as well.

Anyhow, I signed an NDA just like everyone else, so I'm not sure what I'm at liberty to discuss or not. I'm probably already crossing boundaries here and Goryus probably has enough to try and convict me already. ^_^ And usually, when I talk about it, I get all passionately angry and sound like a total whiny bitch and it just sounds like I'm mad at Sirlin because he didn't listen to me. So I always have to watch myself whenever I talk about it. ^_^

* * * * *

Anyhow, I think the new thing about Akuma is that, well, when he throws the Air Fireball, he enters in a new arc that occurs regardless of where he is during his Jump. So while straight up Air Fireball was a decent lock down before, doing the Air Fireball manually after Jumping still made him bounce to about normal Jumping height. Tiger Kneeing it with the QCF, U + Punch method I believe makes him throw it as early as possible, so the "bounce" after throwing it is actually lower, at max height, than his normal straight up Jumping Air Fireball, so he lands sooner, allowing him to string them together more quickly.

And I've tried to use Akuma, but I suck at him. The onl way I can actually play Shotos is if they give them Fake Fireballs. I get so obsessed with gimmicks that it actually makes my Shoto better. Derek Daniels (omni) actually made fun of me saying my Ryu is good in ST now only because of the Fake Fireball, because now I throw that all the time in places where I used to throw Normal Fireballs. Without it, I'd've just thrown regular Fireballs and died.

- James

[desk]

I lol'd at several points while reading that. I totally agree with having a 'combo person' on board throughout. Can you give me your scoop on possible tiers?

Regarding the akuma thing, I was doing that on day 1 (and I'm sure many other people were too). TKing his air-fireball both straight up and also back is a standard part of his game and that trap is very straight forward. I've been using it since I picked up akuma (day 1!). He has some other, very sneaky stuff that is going to cause loads of people to overreact when it gets online. I hope I don't seem too much of a dick for not posting exactly what i'm talking about but I really want to be able to go to a tournament and actually do some 'new' stuff, that people haven't seen before.

I guess I might be contradicting myself there, withholding info and everything. I was just expecting someone else to step in that thread and tell everyone what's up, lol.

[desk]

here it is on megaupload.

[jchensor]

I lol'd at several points while reading that. I totally agree with having a 'combo person' on board throughout. Can you give me your scoop on possible tiers?

Tiers, huh? Hmm. Hard for me to say. I'm not really too sure on tiers just yet, and the game does feel like the tiers are less farther apart even though most match ups haven't changed drastically. Plus, we haven't seen a lot of really high level play yet, so I'm really waffling a lot on where I place everyone right now, as some characters have the ability to jump around two tiers, even. But I guess this is just a view of where I stand on where the characters are, currently. Let's use the typical four tiers that everyone gives: Top, High, Mid, and Low. Tiers themselves are not sorted into any particular order.

God Tier
Akuma

Akuma is just too good. Not bannable good yet, but he's got a weapon for every situation. So he's really dangerous right now, and his turtle capabilities are stupidly good.

Top Tier
Vega
Sagat
Ryu
Blanka
Dhalsim

Vega was always good. Losing the knock-down on the Wall-Dive isn't as big a nerf as people think. It gave him free wins, yeah, but good Vegas don't need it anyhow. Nothing else got nerfed, and the Fake Wall Dive is still, IMO, really amazingly good. Sagat is more honest, but very solid, still. Ryu, I think, has not peaked yet. For some reason, I honestly believe the Fake Fireball will end up being better than people think right now. It'll have a bigger affect at higher levels of play, IMO, not because it'll be used well, but the threat of it opens up so many more possibilities for Ryu. Blanka... I'm biased. I hate hate hate the new Blanka Ball. Blanka is beatable still, sure... and he should probably be moved down one tier. But I have him up here because I hate the Blanka Ball and hate the fact that beating Blanka really does come down to mashing Crouch Jab with your respective character to hit the Blanka Ball now. And Dhalsim is still Dhalsim. Losing the Noogie Trap, again, is just a way to prevent him free wins. But he still has the range on Fierce Throw, and so he's really not all that different. So I can't see him being anything less that Top Tier still.

High Tier
Honda
Guile
Dee Jay
Balrog
Bison

Honda is really good now, IMO. All of his bad match ups aren't nearly as bad as before and all of his good match ups are still good, barely affected at all. Guile is really good now as well. I think the newfound power of Combos, anti-airs, and counter Roundhouse Razor Kicks have made him a more formidable turtle than ever. And if he ever feels like it, he can go for Cross-ups into Supers which are SUPER easy to do now. Dee Jay got no nerfs. He only got better with better Dread Kicks and better Machine Gun Punch. Balrog is still Balrog and I honestly think he should still be in Top Tier. The only reason I'm a bit down on him right now is because he got nothing new, so it just feels like he has the same ol' stuff... but it was all REALLY good stuff, so it's tough to say right now. And finally, Bison again did nothing but get better. And he does way better against Shotos than before, as they can't trap him nearly as easily as before. And I think the Fake Slide is way too good. I apparently think Fake anything is way too good.

Mid Tier
Ken
Chun Li
Fei Long
Zangief
T.Hawk

Ken still is too high risk to be effective. He's better, but he still kills himself a lot. Chun Li just doesn't feel as potent. The nerf to her Super damage seems really huge. And the new Bird Kick and the new Air Bird Kick seemed to have caused more problems that anything. Fei Long is, well, he's better. But not by a huge jump. The Short Chicken Wing is a great parlor trick right now, but once people get better at dealing with it, it won't be as effective. He still can't beat the likes of Dee Jay and Guile. Zangief is better, but he'll ultimately end up not being too different than how he was before. Got more options, yeah, but I don't think they helped him enough. And T.Hawk didn't get anything to help him fight Honda or Guile, so he still dies there. The new Hawk Dive just isn't as cool as Sirlin thought, because... did he really have trouble getting in? The only characters that were that problematic were Honda and GUile... and he still can't do anything to them. In the end, the new Hawk Dive doesn't do him much, IMO. MY Hawk Dive idea was more useful, IMO.

Low Tier
Cammy

Again, total absolute utter bias here. But all her good match ups got worse, and all her bad match ups still suck. She's probably better than this, but it just feels so disappointing that she got as many nerfs as she did buffs. It just feels so shitty to have a character who sucked before have all her good things from before suck now. Cannon Drill is nice, but it only gets you so far.

Regarding the akuma thing, I was doing that on day 1 (and I'm sure many other people were too). TKing his air-fireball both straight up and also back is a standard part of his game and that trap is very straight forward. I've been using it since I picked up akuma (day 1!). He has some other, very sneaky stuff that is going to cause loads of people to overreact when it gets online. I hope I don't seem too much of a dick for not posting exactly what i'm talking about but I really want to be able to go to a tournament and actually do some 'new' stuff, that people haven't seen before.

I guess I might be contradicting myself there, withholding info and everything. I was just expecting someone else to step in that thread and tell everyone what's up, lol.

Ah, okay. Yeah, I haven't seen many people do the Tiger Knee to Up Air Fireball... only the forwards one, really. How consistently can you do the straight up one? If you can do it a lot in a row, it'd be nice to cap it and show people you can easily get good at it. A lot of people are dismissing it completely as too hard to consistently do. And with Japanese players out there who could do three Iaigeri Kicks in a row in Combos in ACTUAL GAMEPLAY in Virtua Fighter 2.... I just don't think anything is impossible.

And totally thank you for the MegaUpload. ^_^ Graci graci!

- James

[desk]

whoa, very interesting, thanks dude. I totally don't understand the cammy thing but I don't use at all, lol. Chun will still be able to compete, only using different tactics to the one's she used in ST. Dictator is now top IMO as well.

Someone posted that akuma corner trap x 30 or something on SRK already. If your used to the old skool tiger knee/reverse HK/juice kick motions, it's really not too difficult. He does have another (better IMO) trap that is genuinely difficult. Even still, if you practised it up, you'd be able to do it consistently.