MVC2 - Conceptualizing The Madness...

[obot64]

I have seen from numerous combo and glitch videos that mvc2 is a deep game, but I have yet to get involved in it (mainly because if its debth).

I'd like to start fooling around with this game, but I’ve lacked a solid base of knowledgeable people who could quickly tell me or point me in the right direction for exploring the characters and game engine.

In short, I’m a mvc2 combo vid noob looking for help in understanding the games mechanics, and nuances.

[jchensor]

And herein lies the problem with the MvC2 community, no? I think I've heard Magnetro opine this problem a few times. Seems as if, though many people know a TON about MvC2 and its nuances and glitches and such, almost no one has actually committed any of it down to a researchable resource. The best you can probably do is actually watch old videos and ask someone, like Magnetro, how something happened.

I'm right with you, Obot. I, just for the same of knowing, would love to learn more about MvC2 as well.

- James

[Magnetro]

I hate answering noob questions. I think that's what SRK and GameFaqs.com are for. But something really complicated happens in a video or someone talks about it, I'd be happy to try to answer it. But I don't think a lot of the people are really knowledgeable with the MvC2 combo system. So I don't expect really hard questions =/. There are 3 knowledgeable people on this site so far, MikeZ, B.B. Hood, and myself.

Anyway, if you want to get into the game's engine REALLY well you'd need a program pad to find numbers and frame-specific links/combos etc. But if you want to understand how deep the engine can be, watch really old Meikyousisui videos and try doing the combos by hand. Meik 1-5 are 100% manual so they're all within 'reach'. The reason I mention them is 'cause a lot of the combos in the videos require very good knowledge of the game OR it shows you different aspects/ideas for a character. It's really hard to briefly answer the question since it's such a complicated one IMO so I'll just say: Learn the engine in general, then try combining all sorts of things...meaning pick a variety of characters and explore the assists types.



This game is hard!

PS. As for data about the game: Only joo's site has frame data and all other kinds of information. He's really crazy with that stuff. I think he's exhausted every possibility for a solo combo with everyone two times over by now. That's why the only thing that impresses him are ideas not a ridiculously long combo with only 'hard-to-pull off hits/not usually seen' hits.


if you can make sense of my post you should get a medal, i'm freaking sleepy as I'm typing this out.

[fullmetalross]

heh yeah MVC 2 is a great game I feel sort of like Obot does but I also undrestand how magnetro feels theres no reason to explain everything. Like I asked him a while back does doom get unfly, and he said yeah he does. But i felt stupid for asking cause it was like yeah, duh he does.

Anyway. MVC 2 is so crazy hard, I think it's definetly one of the pinacles of combo video world cause the shit is so hard.

I think on the another end something like cvs 2 or lb2 would be another pinacle as it's so simple it's hard to get something wholy orignal in it.

though I guess now alot of us are in the same boat as, all the games now seem to be, do some creative setup or don't do it at all. Or mabye I'm just synical.

[Magnetro]

Yeah, MvC2 is definitely one of the hardest games to come up with something new in. There are like 4-6 people in the whole MvC2 scene that are REALLY up there with combos etc. =/ I want to help Maj get into MvC2 (combo video aspect of it) 'cause I really enjoyed his reversal video and I think he can do something similar in MvC2 (since there is SO much to find still!)

[Mike Z]

I'm the the opposite camp from Magnetro - I don't think there's much big and flashy left. Lots of subtle stuff that most people won't understand or care about, but that's why we're here, right?

How to break MvC2 (and impress everyone except certain SH forum members and joo):
- Take a really old bug (Venom/BBH, 2-character, etc) and try it against absolutely every move in the game. Chances are other people missed one or two, and some of the effects you get are new unto themselves. Hell, I just did this last week. (^.^) Explore EVERY AVENUE of the effects you get - most of breaking MvC2 is exhaustive search, until you have your internal database of "what moves are usually broken".

How to create a combo in MvC2 (AIEECSHFMAJ):
- Figure out some moves you want to link, and work to find an assist that makes it happen. Do this for a few moves and up to 2 assists. Then perform the 2-character bug on both assists, and use both in your combo. Done!

Helpful hints:
- Useful bugs to help you learn the game engine for combos are: hypergrav/tempest (yeah, really! Teaches you about what super flash does to the other point char);
triple Kobun super and Gambit/Wolverine/Psylock/Sonson/Jin throw/etc;
Gambit glitch / A2 snap being broken;
"Unfly" mode;
Suki cancel w/Ruby setup;
Multiple OTGs;
Shuma "umbrella" bug;
Sent throw + Dhalsim/Iceman/Ruby/Tron/Megaman;
Venom and BBH/Jin/Strider/etc, and all variations and outcomes;
instant DHC (aka unblockable DHC);
double-DHC (no real name, both teams DHC at the same frame);
2-character bug;
I'm sure I forgot something, heh. Roughly in order of difficulty of execution/understanding. Someone else can explain them in depth if they want.
- Assists that are incredibly useful for combos or glitches yet useless in actual matches:
Thanos/Spiderman/Ruby/Cable capture types (Cable has some funky bugs with it, and nobody has used it much), Gambit card - they reset the opponent to standing state;
Zangief airthrow, Anakaris/Rogue grab-type, Jill/Ruby/Amingo "bonus" type - they don't interact with the opponent so you can call them multiple times, and they can get between the opponent and the corner, or behind you, and alter or prevent pushback;

There was something else I wanted to mention, but I've forgotten.

Maybe some of this is useful.
Mike Z

[BB Hood]

Keep in mind the most broken character is Venom. So the best glitches you will find are glitch setups that require him. For example:

Venom Profile on GV: http://www.glitchvideos.com/page.php?id=61
2 Character Glitch Tut: http://www.glitchvideos.com/page.php?id=155

Look at old videos like Jadon's most recent video. You might find some clues on how setups are done that you can use for your own glitches. If you got any questions on setups in "BB Hoods Resolution" just ask.

Also at the end of Jadons video he gives a list of future videos he was supposed to do. Take that list in consideration when selecting characters to find glitches with.

[Magnetro]

BBHood's website has a ton of glitches and little tidbits about the game that is useful to know if you want to find out new things.

Also, jadon brown is one the most interesting individuals ever...


Anyway....His way of finding things was that of joo's which is what mikez said.


TRY-EVERY-SINGLE-POSSIBILITY-THAT-YOU-CAN.


When you start breaking the game apart is when you start to find weird stuff and interesting things.

Also it helps a lot if you have a program pad cause that lets you get frame-specific things.

[Vega Omega]

I hate to say it, but if you're not into the game by now...you're most likely never going to come up with something good. you may think it's good or even new, but i'm willing to be that it has been done plently of times. you just got to get creative and try stuff that you think won't work. then you find something you can adjust to make something else.

[Maj]

Most of the stuff in this thread is general combo video making advice that applies to any game. It's really nothing new to obot64, cuz he's made plenty of combo videos before. I think he was trying to ask whether there's a comprehensive MvC2 combo/systems guide that someone could read for a general understanding of the game's engine.

For example, the Alpha 3 combo engine is totally unique and at first glance, totally mysterious. But if you just read James Chen's SFA3 Combo/Systems Guide you get a good feel for how the game works, what's possible in the game, and which combos are impressive.

It seems like nobody has really taken the time to put together something like that for MvC2. And i know that a lot of Marvel players are biased like "MvC2 is the most complex game ever! No mortal can truly understand it!!" but i think this is one of those cases where even baby steps would help.

Maybe some of the MvC2 people should collaborate on putting together a combo engine guide. Feel free to use this forum as scratch paper.

[Magnetro]

Hm. Well I've filled out some of the Wiki...

http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php ... %28MvC2%29

[obot64]

Thanks everyone for the comments! Great discussion going on here.

I hate to say it, but if you're not into the game by now...you're most likely never going to come up with something good. you may think it's good or even new, but I’m willing to be that it has been done plenty of times. You just got to get creative and try stuff that you think won't work. Then you find something you can adjust to make something else.

I'll respond to this by simply saying; that I play games, for my own personal entertainment. Early on in my vid making career I learned an important lessoin: there are always more people willing to learn something at any one point than there are people willing to teach.

When I began playing CvS2 in 2003, everyone said to me.... "If you haven't been playign the game since it came out, then there is no point! You will never be better than X player." I went to EVO2k4, I worked hard, I read faq's, I posted questions I watch vids, I learned about the game, etc. and the result it'd say is good. I posted vids, i inspired people, i shared the knowledge i gained, and people still learn and watch things i've done to this day. Not that i was doing anything new or revolutionary, all i did was share things I found interesting, betting on an off chance that if i wanted to know something or found something novel, somebody else would to.

I personally believe in cross-pollination of concepts, I want to investigate MvC2 because understanding it will change the way I look at other games. Also who's to say that I don’t have some great ideas for Marvel combo's setups etc, or that I wouldn't come up with some?

IDK am I just rambling or am I making sense?

[Maj]

One time Valle was telling me about the benefits of playing lots of diverse fighting games instead of focusing on just one, and he made exactly the same point. He said that every game emphasizes a certain skill, like ST for mindgames, A3 for execution, and MvC2 for reactions. So when it comes down to clutch time in any game you're playing, you have all the tools you need. Cuz you never know what will be the deciding factor when you're one hit away from winning or losing.

[Mike Z]

I hate to say it, but if you're not into the game by now...you're most likely never going to come up with something good.

I completely disagree. It's one thing to take an educated guess at what might be wrong based upon accumulated knowledge. But it's another to not have any of that knowledge, which allows you to look for things nobody who knows anything would even try. Perhaps he'll be the one who figures out how to do Wolverine's airthrow freeze. :^)
Also, you forget that most of the bugs in MvC2 are actually from earlier games, since it uses the same engine (e.g. FSD including trip FSD, guard breaks, dead-body infinites, all the Venom stuff from MvC1, multiple OTGs, flying bugs in XSF, etc.) Even the inclusion of assists exposed many flaws that were already there, but unable to be done in older games. Perhaps someone who really knows the engine from older games can take it apart in a new way...

Also, I don't think MvC2 is so big and broken that it's incomprehensible without long devoted study (snatch the pebble from my hand, Grasshopper...) There are a few (well, a many few) fundamental things about the engine that encompass a great deal of what is known. Just being able to know what the programmers assumed couldn't be done is a big help.

Mike Z

[Magnetro]

I hate to say it, but if you're not into the game by now...you're most likely never going to come up with something good.

I completely disagree. It's one thing to take an educated guess at what might be wrong based upon accumulated knowledge. But it's another to not have any of that knowledge, which allows you to look for things nobody who knows anything would even try. Perhaps he'll be the one who figures out how to do Wolverine's airthrow freeze. :^)
Also, you forget that most of the bugs in MvC2 are actually from earlier games, since it uses the same engine (e.g. FSD including trip FSD, guard breaks, dead-body infinites, all the Venom stuff from MvC1, multiple OTGs, flying bugs in XSF, etc.) Even the inclusion of assists exposed many flaws that were already there, but unable to be done in older games. Perhaps someone who really knows the engine from older games can take it apart in a new way...

Also, I don't think MvC2 is so big and broken that it's incomprehensible without long devoted study (snatch the pebble from my hand, Grasshopper...) There are a few (well, a many few) fundamental things about the engine that encompass a great deal of what is known. Just being able to know what the programmers assumed couldn't be done is a big help.

Mike Z

You know I still haven't read your E-Mail

Which brings me to my point, you must have desire to constantly find stuff even if a certain person has found it before you. For instance BBHood would always tell me stuff he found but most if not all of it was found by mikez or jadon brown (mikez's friend lol). So yeah, don't give up.

[Vidness]

There are still a few things that I have seen during gameplay that haven't been showcased in a video. I once caught my pal in the strider grab super, but I had called out Blackheart AA at the same time. During the super, the assist hits him out of it. He lands, with my strider still going through the flight paths as though he was still caught. If I remember correctly, it did do some decent block damage, but he killed me afterwards

[Vega Omega]

There are still a few things that I have seen during gameplay that haven't been showcased in a video. I once caught my pal in the strider grab super, but I had called out Blackheart AA at the same time. During the super, the assist hits him out of it. He lands, with my strider still going through the flight paths as though he was still caught. If I remember correctly, it did do some decent block damage, but he killed me afterwards

Sounds just like if you do Venom's Hcf+pp DHC into Striders ragnarok. Strider will go through the motions, but the opponett will be moving freely until striders last hit.