Touhou Suimusou; Immaterial and Missing Power (IaMP).
I discovered there's more than one user from this board that has tried it, and more than one user that plays it, so I felt it was time for a thread. I'm going to try not to do my usual great wall of text in xenospeak, pardon me if it turns out that way anyway. If you don't want to click anything and just want to read a brief overview then just skip to the second post.
Videos may or may not be the best way to expose yourself to the game, but it's personally my method of choice. I like to see videos of competitive play before I try a game. That said, here's some links:
- Sibladeko's playlist for Tohgeki 2 features Japanese tournament play.
- Sibladeko's playlists also feature Saitama tournament and Tohgeki 1 tournament. Basically, the playlists with Japanese text in them are the IaMP playlists.
- Media Links on mizuumi link to other places to find IaMP videos. The last link in particular is a playlist of various combo videos.
- This match breaks the YouTube rules and shows IaMP in very high quality video format so you can get a better look at the art.
That aside, there's also tons of written information for the game and games associated with it.
- IaMP wiki on mizuumi is an English wiki that has been developed by western competitive players. It gives a detailed look at the system mechanics and character's moves and stats.
- IaMP wiki on Touhou-wiki gives a comprehensive and in-depth look at the history of the game, canon, and fan canon.
- IaMP FAQ was written by Bellreisa from a competitive gaming point of view. It doubles as a FAQ and also a preliminary gameplay basics tutorial.
- Xenozip's IaMP Blog is a pseudo-journal written by me. It was not meant to be treated as a anything other than a journal, though it does depict a range of basic-to-advanced mechanics and was written in a self-teaching style.
Touhou Suimusou: IaMP
Touhou Suimusou: IaMP
Last edited by Xenozip. on Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Looks like Jolly Ranchers & Baskin's Sherbet.
Re: Touhou Suimusou: IaMP
It's a (3Button) doujin 2D fighting game for the PC.
So, what makes it good/bad/ugly.
Well, it's a fighting game (and we love fighting games), but this is a very unique fighting game. Projectiles can be dashed/airdashed/highjumped through, but while moving through projectiles you are vulnerable to melee. Thus, the game heavily revolves around movement, controlling space, and midrange in general.
However, there is a wide variety of characters, each character has a different set of projectiles, melee, and even different movement speeds and types. That means that quite a few characters can be played completely differently from one another. Some characters rely more on midrange, while others rely on point blank. Some characters rely more on baiting and trapping, while others more on zoning.
Speaking of characters, the game is very well balanced. Despite the characters being varied quite a bit, most characters are fairly even. There are some good/bad matchups though, which puts a particular character higher in the tiers and another character lower in the tiers, but for the most part there's really nothing broken or stupidly overpowered in the game.
I like it because of the challenge. It's extremely challenging to learn, especially when you've been playing many different traditional 2D fighters for years. Getting good at IaMP requires a different set of skills and the relearning of old skills. There are features unique to IaMP that are critical to learn, such as: 'Suki' or frame-gap techniques, staggering strings, bullet/melee mixups, grazing or projectile+melee evasion, etc.
Personally, I believe that players at any level can learn to attack and mount an offense very easily in almost any fighting game just from: watching, reading, and training-mode only. Defending is a whole different story, IMO. I believe defense is only something you can learn through trial and error experience. This is evident in the fact that training-mode only players who first enter the competitive scene are extremely good at attacking, but are horrifically bad at defending.
And this is part of what makes IaMP challenging. Defending is quite a bit different from traditional 2D fighters so you have to relearn everything, which I feel is harder than learning for the first time since you're working against habits, and attacking isn't quite as cut-and-dry either.
In many games we're very use to simple if>then formulas for defending. EG. if opponent jumps > use anti-air button. And we're use to the same formulas for attacking; EG. if opponent blocks > throw. Things are not nearly this cut-and-dry in IaMP. The answer for *any* IaMP gameplay related question is: "depends". Pretty much everything is situational, even combos. There is no 1-button anti-air to use for every situation. While there are good anti-airs, they lose under the wrong circumstances and win under the right circumstances. There's no 1-button poke either -- again, they only work if the stage is set in your favor. While you can instantly guard break or "beat blocking" against an airborne opponent, the same is not true for a grounded opponent. Only one character in the game has a throw, and even when an opponent blocks incorrectly against high/lows they are not instantly guard broken; they are put in an immobile state and get another chance to block before being hit.
The only comparisons I can make with this game to other games is with Venom and Dizzy in the GG series, or quite a few characters in MvC2, and perhaps a little bit of Remy in SF3:3S. Really, Venom billard shot 6HS reminds me quite a bit of Marisa far B d6A, which also somewhat reminds me of Guile and Remy. Bullet/melee make up a good deal of both midrange and mixups in the game for most characters, but there is also melee-based high/low and left/right mixups existing in the game, in fact high/low is a universal functionality.
Is it fun? What's every IaMP answer?
"Depends"
Totally depends on what you consider fun. When I first started playing I was incredibly aggravated, annoyed, pissed off, and confused. And as I continued to play I wasn't learning anything. One day, when I decided to analyze what exactly was going on, it "clicked". I began to learn more and more, and it became very challenging and interesting. And to me, this is fun; learning.
"It's like Marvel with all Cables!" -Justin Wong, NEC8
"Tasofro makes very good games" -Bellreisa
So, what makes it good/bad/ugly.
Well, it's a fighting game (and we love fighting games), but this is a very unique fighting game. Projectiles can be dashed/airdashed/highjumped through, but while moving through projectiles you are vulnerable to melee. Thus, the game heavily revolves around movement, controlling space, and midrange in general.
However, there is a wide variety of characters, each character has a different set of projectiles, melee, and even different movement speeds and types. That means that quite a few characters can be played completely differently from one another. Some characters rely more on midrange, while others rely on point blank. Some characters rely more on baiting and trapping, while others more on zoning.
Speaking of characters, the game is very well balanced. Despite the characters being varied quite a bit, most characters are fairly even. There are some good/bad matchups though, which puts a particular character higher in the tiers and another character lower in the tiers, but for the most part there's really nothing broken or stupidly overpowered in the game.
I like it because of the challenge. It's extremely challenging to learn, especially when you've been playing many different traditional 2D fighters for years. Getting good at IaMP requires a different set of skills and the relearning of old skills. There are features unique to IaMP that are critical to learn, such as: 'Suki' or frame-gap techniques, staggering strings, bullet/melee mixups, grazing or projectile+melee evasion, etc.
Personally, I believe that players at any level can learn to attack and mount an offense very easily in almost any fighting game just from: watching, reading, and training-mode only. Defending is a whole different story, IMO. I believe defense is only something you can learn through trial and error experience. This is evident in the fact that training-mode only players who first enter the competitive scene are extremely good at attacking, but are horrifically bad at defending.
And this is part of what makes IaMP challenging. Defending is quite a bit different from traditional 2D fighters so you have to relearn everything, which I feel is harder than learning for the first time since you're working against habits, and attacking isn't quite as cut-and-dry either.
In many games we're very use to simple if>then formulas for defending. EG. if opponent jumps > use anti-air button. And we're use to the same formulas for attacking; EG. if opponent blocks > throw. Things are not nearly this cut-and-dry in IaMP. The answer for *any* IaMP gameplay related question is: "depends". Pretty much everything is situational, even combos. There is no 1-button anti-air to use for every situation. While there are good anti-airs, they lose under the wrong circumstances and win under the right circumstances. There's no 1-button poke either -- again, they only work if the stage is set in your favor. While you can instantly guard break or "beat blocking" against an airborne opponent, the same is not true for a grounded opponent. Only one character in the game has a throw, and even when an opponent blocks incorrectly against high/lows they are not instantly guard broken; they are put in an immobile state and get another chance to block before being hit.
The only comparisons I can make with this game to other games is with Venom and Dizzy in the GG series, or quite a few characters in MvC2, and perhaps a little bit of Remy in SF3:3S. Really, Venom billard shot 6HS reminds me quite a bit of Marisa far B d6A, which also somewhat reminds me of Guile and Remy. Bullet/melee make up a good deal of both midrange and mixups in the game for most characters, but there is also melee-based high/low and left/right mixups existing in the game, in fact high/low is a universal functionality.
Is it fun? What's every IaMP answer?
"Depends"
Totally depends on what you consider fun. When I first started playing I was incredibly aggravated, annoyed, pissed off, and confused. And as I continued to play I wasn't learning anything. One day, when I decided to analyze what exactly was going on, it "clicked". I began to learn more and more, and it became very challenging and interesting. And to me, this is fun; learning.
"It's like Marvel with all Cables!" -Justin Wong, NEC8
"Tasofro makes very good games" -Bellreisa
Last edited by Xenozip. on Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Looks like Jolly Ranchers & Baskin's Sherbet.
-
fullmetalross
- Posts: 360
- Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:12 am
Re: Touhou Suimusou: IaMP
So here's just a rudimentary psot I'll expand on later cause I want to get some IAMP matches in before I have to leave.
But here's what I have to say really quickly on the game,
I was talking to xeno about it briefly and he told me, "either it clicks, or it doesn't"
and I have to say, while I really am bad at the game right now, after reading through the resources (its really nice they are so widely available) and play a few matches, thsi game is tons of fun. Hard, different, but very fun. The characters are all different and interesting and yet as xeno pointed out nothing seems overly borked. I wish I knew more to say but hopefully after playing more I'll know.
Also this game is very bruce lee. Your must make yourself as water.
But here's what I have to say really quickly on the game,
I was talking to xeno about it briefly and he told me, "either it clicks, or it doesn't"
and I have to say, while I really am bad at the game right now, after reading through the resources (its really nice they are so widely available) and play a few matches, thsi game is tons of fun. Hard, different, but very fun. The characters are all different and interesting and yet as xeno pointed out nothing seems overly borked. I wish I knew more to say but hopefully after playing more I'll know.
Also this game is very bruce lee. Your must make yourself as water.
Re: Touhou Suimusou: IaMP
Regarding the aesthetics (I dread the subject). The game aesthetics are rather deceptive. At first glance it appears that a bunch of chibi loli girls are farting rainbows and sneezing pixie dust, then shit stars and spin around like crazy bitches on counterhit. However, there's quite a bit more to it than just that, actually playing it is quite a different experience.
The good news is the music is good and has lasting power, the sound effects are good and last, and while the attack effects seem a little girly they are at least well made and easy on the eye. They all have vibrant personality that becomes rather endearing as time passes, particularly the music in my opinion.
While the characters appear to have stubby little arms and legs, their attacks are not stubby at all. As you can see in this image and this image and also this image, there are quite a few melee-based attacks with gigantic hitboxes. While some characters do have rather stubby attacks on par with shoto crouching short, many characters have huge attacks on par with 3S-Chun standing fierce and Claw jumping fierce. There's also melee anti-airs on part with Cammy crouching fierce and such. The point, however, is that any particular move can be made effective or ineffective depending on the right circumstances. Due to the way projectiles work, quite a few of the would-be abusable attacks in the game become rather ordinary. However, tasofro was rather smart about it, many of the extreme good attacks are quite balanced and have their own set of drawbacks, while the characters with stubby attacks often have good projectiles and very good movement to compensate.
And while it appears that that the characters can't combo due to the way normal moves work, situational combos tell a completely different story. Many characters comboability increases drastically given the right circumstances, anti-air in particular. But again, it's really character dependent. Some characters have high comboability in any situation, while others can only achieve maximum potential with the right setups.
Incidentally, I believe that with the exception of maybe two characters, the game is very much a thinking mans game, due to the mechanics you are pretty much forced to think ahead quite a lot. Though that doesn't necessarily imply that you must anticipate everything correctly though, there's still a lot of reaction going on as well. So yes, I agree.
The good news is the music is good and has lasting power, the sound effects are good and last, and while the attack effects seem a little girly they are at least well made and easy on the eye. They all have vibrant personality that becomes rather endearing as time passes, particularly the music in my opinion.
While the characters appear to have stubby little arms and legs, their attacks are not stubby at all. As you can see in this image and this image and also this image, there are quite a few melee-based attacks with gigantic hitboxes. While some characters do have rather stubby attacks on par with shoto crouching short, many characters have huge attacks on par with 3S-Chun standing fierce and Claw jumping fierce. There's also melee anti-airs on part with Cammy crouching fierce and such. The point, however, is that any particular move can be made effective or ineffective depending on the right circumstances. Due to the way projectiles work, quite a few of the would-be abusable attacks in the game become rather ordinary. However, tasofro was rather smart about it, many of the extreme good attacks are quite balanced and have their own set of drawbacks, while the characters with stubby attacks often have good projectiles and very good movement to compensate.
And while it appears that that the characters can't combo due to the way normal moves work, situational combos tell a completely different story. Many characters comboability increases drastically given the right circumstances, anti-air in particular. But again, it's really character dependent. Some characters have high comboability in any situation, while others can only achieve maximum potential with the right setups.
That's a very excellent way of putting it, thank you.fullmetalross wrote:Also this game is very bruce lee. Your must make yourself as water.
Incidentally, I believe that with the exception of maybe two characters, the game is very much a thinking mans game, due to the mechanics you are pretty much forced to think ahead quite a lot. Though that doesn't necessarily imply that you must anticipate everything correctly though, there's still a lot of reaction going on as well. So yes, I agree.
Looks like Jolly Ranchers & Baskin's Sherbet.
Re: Touhou Suimusou: IaMP
Competitive scene. There is a scene for this game in Japan which is evident when you skim over the Tournament Results page on mizuumi. fullmetalross, you might want to check that page out for replays. The Japanese player Matsuda is rather outreaching and friendly when it comes to IaMP, he's very enthusiastic and supportive of the game and it's competitive scene, and he has organized and entered quite a few tournaments both with local Japanese players and players outside of Japan.
There is a strong casual scene for the game online as well, but sadly there's no offline tournaments for it in western areas, AFAIK. The IRC channels provide players access to many different players in Europe and other western areas. Surprisingly, both channels are actually very healthy as far as constant play goes. On any given day there are somewhere around 25 people minimum (never seen a smaller number) at least on the mizuumi channel, and more often than not it's much more full than that. Not a day goes by without some one playing since I've joined that channel, usually at all hours of the day but generally during primetime hours. During peak hours there's always some one available to play.
While most IaMP players are originally Touhou fans who also picked up IaMP out of their fandom for Touhou, and not fighting game fans, some of these players have gotten good and some of them are simply not. However, there are some fighting game fans who regularly play it as well, Bellreisa is certainly one of the best (if not the best) western player and he too comes from a fighting game background. But like the Touhou fans, some of the fighting game players have gotten good and some are simply not.
Many more Melty Blood players have started trying to learn IaMP, possibly because of the influence of the Caster netplay client, or for whatever other reasons. There is also a Samurai Shodown player who is now a diehard player, and I myself come from more of a Capcom fighter background.
One very cool thing that has happened recently is some of the Japanese players, including Matsuda, has connected with us in the western IRC channel and played various sets with us online. While the lag was pretty heavy, we at least got to learn quite a bit and I feel the event raised the bar for the level of play in the channel. While they don't visit the channel much anymore, they left behind some of the tools we need to get better and learn more.
For tournaments outside of Japan, I'm not sure what will (if anything) launch a competitive tournament scene for this game. I know starting tournaments online is not probable or even helpful. Being that it's not in the arcades or on console it isn't likely to happen on it's own either. This game will need intervention from the fans in order to get a scene going by organizing events at other fighting game tournament events. NEC8 got to catch a glimpse of some IaMP, as it was represented there by Bellreisa, Sphy, Sibladeko, HeartNana, Sp00ky, and others. From there, others have picked up the game just from seeing it and talking with people. If it's exposed at other large events, other fighting game players might pick it up out of curiosity. This could in turn lead to IaMP side tournaments since those who saw it last time could enter the next time.
There is a strong casual scene for the game online as well, but sadly there's no offline tournaments for it in western areas, AFAIK. The IRC channels provide players access to many different players in Europe and other western areas. Surprisingly, both channels are actually very healthy as far as constant play goes. On any given day there are somewhere around 25 people minimum (never seen a smaller number) at least on the mizuumi channel, and more often than not it's much more full than that. Not a day goes by without some one playing since I've joined that channel, usually at all hours of the day but generally during primetime hours. During peak hours there's always some one available to play.
While most IaMP players are originally Touhou fans who also picked up IaMP out of their fandom for Touhou, and not fighting game fans, some of these players have gotten good and some of them are simply not. However, there are some fighting game fans who regularly play it as well, Bellreisa is certainly one of the best (if not the best) western player and he too comes from a fighting game background. But like the Touhou fans, some of the fighting game players have gotten good and some are simply not.
Many more Melty Blood players have started trying to learn IaMP, possibly because of the influence of the Caster netplay client, or for whatever other reasons. There is also a Samurai Shodown player who is now a diehard player, and I myself come from more of a Capcom fighter background.
One very cool thing that has happened recently is some of the Japanese players, including Matsuda, has connected with us in the western IRC channel and played various sets with us online. While the lag was pretty heavy, we at least got to learn quite a bit and I feel the event raised the bar for the level of play in the channel. While they don't visit the channel much anymore, they left behind some of the tools we need to get better and learn more.
For tournaments outside of Japan, I'm not sure what will (if anything) launch a competitive tournament scene for this game. I know starting tournaments online is not probable or even helpful. Being that it's not in the arcades or on console it isn't likely to happen on it's own either. This game will need intervention from the fans in order to get a scene going by organizing events at other fighting game tournament events. NEC8 got to catch a glimpse of some IaMP, as it was represented there by Bellreisa, Sphy, Sibladeko, HeartNana, Sp00ky, and others. From there, others have picked up the game just from seeing it and talking with people. If it's exposed at other large events, other fighting game players might pick it up out of curiosity. This could in turn lead to IaMP side tournaments since those who saw it last time could enter the next time.
Looks like Jolly Ranchers & Baskin's Sherbet.
-
fullmetalross
- Posts: 360
- Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:12 am
Re: Touhou Suimusou: IaMP
I'd like to briefly speak towards the look of the game as well.
While it can seem kind of cutsey or what not. If you can get past the negative stereotypes associated with loliness and what not the actual game looks pretty nice. The effects are perfect for the game and never overwhelming they just show what is going on. Also each of the characters is pretty unique something that can be hard to do with a cast of girls like this. But they managed to do it. I mean who doesn't love a cast of characters composed of such wonderful things as a chinese gate keeper and the best DRUNKEN ONI DEMON GIRL!
Okay so that might hurt me more than it helps... but still it's really cool character design imo, and seeing as I'm an artist, I think you should really take that into consideration...
While it can seem kind of cutsey or what not. If you can get past the negative stereotypes associated with loliness and what not the actual game looks pretty nice. The effects are perfect for the game and never overwhelming they just show what is going on. Also each of the characters is pretty unique something that can be hard to do with a cast of girls like this. But they managed to do it. I mean who doesn't love a cast of characters composed of such wonderful things as a chinese gate keeper and the best DRUNKEN ONI DEMON GIRL!
Okay so that might hurt me more than it helps... but still it's really cool character design imo, and seeing as I'm an artist, I think you should really take that into consideration...
Re: Touhou Suimusou: IaMP
orz.
So do you have any gameplay or character play related questions? I just played a set another long set with Suika so my memory is refreshed.
I think I may have already mentioned that a lot of Suika's game revolves around getting the opponent to move when they shouldn't, and chipping at them when they don't move. Her midrange is rather gimmicky, but if you can create openings then you can drastically limit your opponents options, and in some matches you can very forcefully make them act in a way you want them to. I suppose in a way her character design reflects her playstyle; brute force.
In the meantime you might find these amusing: img1 - img2.
So do you have any gameplay or character play related questions? I just played a set another long set with Suika so my memory is refreshed.
I think I may have already mentioned that a lot of Suika's game revolves around getting the opponent to move when they shouldn't, and chipping at them when they don't move. Her midrange is rather gimmicky, but if you can create openings then you can drastically limit your opponents options, and in some matches you can very forcefully make them act in a way you want them to. I suppose in a way her character design reflects her playstyle; brute force.
In the meantime you might find these amusing: img1 - img2.
Looks like Jolly Ranchers & Baskin's Sherbet.
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fullmetalross
- Posts: 360
- Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:12 am
Re: Touhou Suimusou: IaMP
well I was wondering basically about any opening strings you have and what you do to deal with crazy like patch projectile spam.
Right now my main two strings are
3C, hjc, c graze and then do things depending on what they do.
and
Tornado, little Suika rush..
But yeah basically I feel like I just try and work the midrange, and then force them to run into some of my moves. I do like her guardcrush game though. My only problem is catching up with people... If I can get to them though it seems to go alot better.
Right now my main two strings are
3C, hjc, c graze and then do things depending on what they do.
and
Tornado, little Suika rush..
But yeah basically I feel like I just try and work the midrange, and then force them to run into some of my moves. I do like her guardcrush game though. My only problem is catching up with people... If I can get to them though it seems to go alot better.
Re: Touhou Suimusou: IaMP
Keeping in mind the golden rule of IaMP
I often use just two primary midrange items for her because, while she has other options, IMO Suika happens to be one of those characters that doesn't need a lot of ways to approach since her bullets can cover a huge area and her melee is quite favorable.
- Far crouching B canceled into 214A I use depending on the character matchup.
It's the far vacuum vortex canceled into Suika's minis. What this does is suck the opponent in towards the vortex while the minis slowly move forward. This totally limits the opponents horizontal options depending on the character and forces them to make a decision on what to do. They can't really move forward through the minis or move backwards, and they can't jump diagonally because the vortex sucks them back in, which means they can only move vertically. If they stay on the ground they will have to deal with the minis by either attempting to graze them all by "dashing in place" which leaves them vulnerable to melee, throw a bullet to disable the minis which leaves them vulnerable to graze attacks, or block. If they choose to jump then they put themselves in a bad position. You can throw 2C at them, you can get behind them and make them block j.B which you can cancel into j.C, or you can chase them and anti-air them on the way down.
Against characters like Patchouli and Reimu the minis are just outright ineffective, so against them I just use the vortex by itself and pressure them like normal. But simply limiting the opponent's horizontal movement is rather powerful in itself.
Another thing I do a lot against other characters is use;
- far A and far jumping 2A and either 6C or j.6C
to pester the opponent from different angles and force them to move around. Making them move around will buy you a window of opportunity in which you can return to the ground and do other moves. One of the really great things about Suika's C-bullets is that they can not be negated by most other bullets, only grazed. So while you may toss other bullets that get canceled out by enemy fire (you'll run into this a lot against Marisa) your C bullets will not (not even by Marisa). Therefor, once it pops your opponent will have to do something about it.
Once back on the ground you can do things like
- 2C canceled into 214A
- or far 2A (to bring them closer to you) high jump canceled and then immediately off the ground j.C canceled into forward airdash
- or far 2B high jump canceled and then immediate j.6C canceled into airdash which is similar to the above
Against characters with very strong bullet games like Patchouli and Reimu it's difficult to make an opening at far range to do basically anything. The good news is Suika's ground dash is exceptionally good and you can very easily use it to stay on the ground as long as you want. This is very critical against those two characters in particular, since forcing you into the air is exactly what they want (but Suika doesn't have to!). So, stick to the ground and slowly inch forward using your dash and trigraze. In the case of Patchouli her bullet game will become limited because you'll be in closer proximity, so she will not be able to use her far-range-only bullets. In the case of Reimu, her bullet game will always be strong at any range, but what you really want to do is about her melee, not her bullets, and to do that you must first navigate through her waves of bullets while keeping yourself out of the places where she can use her melee -- in the air especially.
I often use just two primary midrange items for her because, while she has other options, IMO Suika happens to be one of those characters that doesn't need a lot of ways to approach since her bullets can cover a huge area and her melee is quite favorable.
- Far crouching B canceled into 214A I use depending on the character matchup.
It's the far vacuum vortex canceled into Suika's minis. What this does is suck the opponent in towards the vortex while the minis slowly move forward. This totally limits the opponents horizontal options depending on the character and forces them to make a decision on what to do. They can't really move forward through the minis or move backwards, and they can't jump diagonally because the vortex sucks them back in, which means they can only move vertically. If they stay on the ground they will have to deal with the minis by either attempting to graze them all by "dashing in place" which leaves them vulnerable to melee, throw a bullet to disable the minis which leaves them vulnerable to graze attacks, or block. If they choose to jump then they put themselves in a bad position. You can throw 2C at them, you can get behind them and make them block j.B which you can cancel into j.C, or you can chase them and anti-air them on the way down.
Against characters like Patchouli and Reimu the minis are just outright ineffective, so against them I just use the vortex by itself and pressure them like normal. But simply limiting the opponent's horizontal movement is rather powerful in itself.
Another thing I do a lot against other characters is use;
- far A and far jumping 2A and either 6C or j.6C
to pester the opponent from different angles and force them to move around. Making them move around will buy you a window of opportunity in which you can return to the ground and do other moves. One of the really great things about Suika's C-bullets is that they can not be negated by most other bullets, only grazed. So while you may toss other bullets that get canceled out by enemy fire (you'll run into this a lot against Marisa) your C bullets will not (not even by Marisa). Therefor, once it pops your opponent will have to do something about it.
Once back on the ground you can do things like
- 2C canceled into 214A
- or far 2A (to bring them closer to you) high jump canceled and then immediately off the ground j.C canceled into forward airdash
- or far 2B high jump canceled and then immediate j.6C canceled into airdash which is similar to the above
Against characters with very strong bullet games like Patchouli and Reimu it's difficult to make an opening at far range to do basically anything. The good news is Suika's ground dash is exceptionally good and you can very easily use it to stay on the ground as long as you want. This is very critical against those two characters in particular, since forcing you into the air is exactly what they want (but Suika doesn't have to!). So, stick to the ground and slowly inch forward using your dash and trigraze. In the case of Patchouli her bullet game will become limited because you'll be in closer proximity, so she will not be able to use her far-range-only bullets. In the case of Reimu, her bullet game will always be strong at any range, but what you really want to do is about her melee, not her bullets, and to do that you must first navigate through her waves of bullets while keeping yourself out of the places where she can use her melee -- in the air especially.
Looks like Jolly Ranchers & Baskin's Sherbet.
-
fullmetalross
- Posts: 360
- Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:12 am
Re: Touhou Suimusou: IaMP
Okay that makes sense.
I didn't realize that about suika's bullets I must have missed it... Though thinking back on it it is readily apparent.
Also good advice against patchouli.. in games with many jump options I pretty readily flee to the air because it is often safer.... But now I understand a little better that being on the ground isn't necessarily bad. Especially if you think about the fact that throws aren't an option for most of the cast.
Also HOW COME IT'S JUST XENO AND I TALKING?? games are fun, you guys should try this one!
I didn't realize that about suika's bullets I must have missed it... Though thinking back on it it is readily apparent.
Also good advice against patchouli.. in games with many jump options I pretty readily flee to the air because it is often safer.... But now I understand a little better that being on the ground isn't necessarily bad. Especially if you think about the fact that throws aren't an option for most of the cast.
Also HOW COME IT'S JUST XENO AND I TALKING?? games are fun, you guys should try this one!
Suki and Suika
Well I guess it's time to talk about framegaps, known as "Suki".
In games where you can connect one hit almost immediately after another, there's a technique the Japanese refer to as Suki that is very highly effective, and is really quite integral to the core of certain types of games, like Melty Blood. It exists in IaMP, though it's not quite as intrinsic as it is in Melty Blood.
What this actually is, is leaving a small gap between two attacks in which you're allowing the opponent to attempt to move, but the gap is small enough that it is impossible for the opponent to actually do anything other than block or be hit.
In IaMP the concept of 1F Suki has the added benefit that the opponent can do literally nothing during that one single frame other than block or be hit. This actually naturally occurs with Patchouli's bread and butter combo fairly often. If you attempt anything, even something with invulnerability, your guard will be dropped and you will be hit.
The correct counter measure to a Suki technique is of course: block. However, this is what you want your opponent to do, you want them to fear the next attack and attempt to block, so that you can do things that counter blocking instead (and beat their block attempt). And on the flipside you want to use Suki techniques to destroy the opponents mindless option selects and movement in general.
Suika actually has quite a few natural Suki strings, so she's kinda good at it. They aren't 1F gaps though so bare in mind that the opponent CAN counter them. But the beauty behind Suika's strings is that her staggered strings can absolutely and royally crush counter-attempts.
To give an example, Suika can do 2A 6A immediately, which will NOT be a Suki. This means that the opponent can hold up immediately after blocking the 2A and they will automatically block the 6A because the blockstun for the previous move had not ended.
Howeve, Suika can instead do 2A then delay the next attack and then do 6A kinda late. Because you delay the 6A it connects with the opponent after the blockstun from 2A has ended, and therefor if they were holding up to jump after the 2A then they wil either be hit out of pre-jump animation or be hit out of the air by the 6A depending on when you did it.
so
- 2A > delayed 6A
As mentioned above, you can purposely delay the 6A in an attempt to leave a gap in which the opponent can drop their guard.
- 2B > delayed 6A
Again, 2B immediate 6A will not naturally Suki on it's own, you have to delay the 6A in order to leave a framegap in between attacks.
- 5B > 6A
This is a small natural Suki, the opponent will be hit on the ground if they attempt to jump after blocking the 5B.
- 2A > 6B
This is also a natural Suki, if the opponent attempts to poke or jump or superjump away from the 6B they will get hit or CH, depending on what they did. You'll notice that 2B 6B actually has a much larger gap -- this is a weak suki because the opponent can easily jump or superjump away after the 2B.
- 6B > 22B/22A
Another natural Suki that is actually fairly easy to time, unlike the next one.
- 2A > 22B/22A
This will actually naturally Suki if you time the cancel correctly (immediately).
- 6A > 22B/22A
Same as above.
Now this is where the real fun begins. Suika's 236A and 236B moves have a habit of causing Suki of just about all of her moves, the size of the gap varies depending on which move you use, but it hardly matters since even with a large gap the melee part of the firepunch tends to hit just about anything anyway. The bonus is that the firepunch also comes equipped with graze frames and/or superarmor. That means even if the opponent attacks during a large gap there's a chance you'll either graze a bullet or punch through their attack using superarmor.
An example of this is 2B 236A. This leaves a large enough gap for the opponent to move around, but even if they jump they will just be hit out of the air due to the size of the melee portion of the firepunch. If they were to attempt a poke or DP while coming out of blockstun, the poke/DP may connect with your body but there's some superarmor to that move so you have a chance to blow through it anyway and punch them out of their attack.
However, after using this technique a great deal your opponent will be much more inclined to simply block or even bomb you out of the firepunch, but this is where Suika's bullets come in.
If you were to do 2A 236A the opponent may choose to just block forever or bomb you. But you could instead do 2A 5C and let the 5C explode, chipping away a great deal of their spirit and life. But wait, there's more! Suika can cancel her 5C into 236A anyway, so she can actually cover herself just in case the opponent attempts to graze forward through the 5C explosion. If they do graze forward, they'll run right into 236A firepunch AND be hit by some of the 5C explosion.
So here's some examples
- 2A/6B > 236A
Natural Suki
- 2A/6B > 5C/6C > 236A
If they block they are likely to block a full C explosion, and if they backdash they could be backdashing right into 6C's explosion. Meanwhile if they graze forward they could graze right into your firepunch melee.
- 2A > 2C > 236B
236B has a lot more autoarmor but punches upwards. I find this useful in the corner because if they jump they will be hit by the firepunch and be knocked upwards into the 2C explosion. The 2C is also exceptionally fast, or at least it can be canceled extremely quickly, so it greatly reduces the chance that they might poke you out of the firepunch. Another added bonus is that the 2C delayed explosion kinda comes after the firepunch, and can actually sort of cover the firepunch recovery time should your opponent simply block.
- D6A > 236A / 214A
Natural Suki. The funny thing about this one is that a lot of people like to try and bomb after the second hit, expecting a firepunch. However if you simply do nothing instead they waste a bomb and risk punishment. Also, 214A can beat bombs at the right distance and also beats blocking, technically. Even if you get hit by a bomb they are technically "wasting" a bomb unless you did firepunch.
So yeah this is turning into a long post so I'll just awkwardly end it here.
In games where you can connect one hit almost immediately after another, there's a technique the Japanese refer to as Suki that is very highly effective, and is really quite integral to the core of certain types of games, like Melty Blood. It exists in IaMP, though it's not quite as intrinsic as it is in Melty Blood.
What this actually is, is leaving a small gap between two attacks in which you're allowing the opponent to attempt to move, but the gap is small enough that it is impossible for the opponent to actually do anything other than block or be hit.
In IaMP the concept of 1F Suki has the added benefit that the opponent can do literally nothing during that one single frame other than block or be hit. This actually naturally occurs with Patchouli's bread and butter combo fairly often. If you attempt anything, even something with invulnerability, your guard will be dropped and you will be hit.
The correct counter measure to a Suki technique is of course: block. However, this is what you want your opponent to do, you want them to fear the next attack and attempt to block, so that you can do things that counter blocking instead (and beat their block attempt). And on the flipside you want to use Suki techniques to destroy the opponents mindless option selects and movement in general.
Suika actually has quite a few natural Suki strings, so she's kinda good at it. They aren't 1F gaps though so bare in mind that the opponent CAN counter them. But the beauty behind Suika's strings is that her staggered strings can absolutely and royally crush counter-attempts.
To give an example, Suika can do 2A 6A immediately, which will NOT be a Suki. This means that the opponent can hold up immediately after blocking the 2A and they will automatically block the 6A because the blockstun for the previous move had not ended.
Howeve, Suika can instead do 2A then delay the next attack and then do 6A kinda late. Because you delay the 6A it connects with the opponent after the blockstun from 2A has ended, and therefor if they were holding up to jump after the 2A then they wil either be hit out of pre-jump animation or be hit out of the air by the 6A depending on when you did it.
so
- 2A > delayed 6A
As mentioned above, you can purposely delay the 6A in an attempt to leave a gap in which the opponent can drop their guard.
- 2B > delayed 6A
Again, 2B immediate 6A will not naturally Suki on it's own, you have to delay the 6A in order to leave a framegap in between attacks.
- 5B > 6A
This is a small natural Suki, the opponent will be hit on the ground if they attempt to jump after blocking the 5B.
- 2A > 6B
This is also a natural Suki, if the opponent attempts to poke or jump or superjump away from the 6B they will get hit or CH, depending on what they did. You'll notice that 2B 6B actually has a much larger gap -- this is a weak suki because the opponent can easily jump or superjump away after the 2B.
- 6B > 22B/22A
Another natural Suki that is actually fairly easy to time, unlike the next one.
- 2A > 22B/22A
This will actually naturally Suki if you time the cancel correctly (immediately).
- 6A > 22B/22A
Same as above.
Now this is where the real fun begins. Suika's 236A and 236B moves have a habit of causing Suki of just about all of her moves, the size of the gap varies depending on which move you use, but it hardly matters since even with a large gap the melee part of the firepunch tends to hit just about anything anyway. The bonus is that the firepunch also comes equipped with graze frames and/or superarmor. That means even if the opponent attacks during a large gap there's a chance you'll either graze a bullet or punch through their attack using superarmor.
An example of this is 2B 236A. This leaves a large enough gap for the opponent to move around, but even if they jump they will just be hit out of the air due to the size of the melee portion of the firepunch. If they were to attempt a poke or DP while coming out of blockstun, the poke/DP may connect with your body but there's some superarmor to that move so you have a chance to blow through it anyway and punch them out of their attack.
However, after using this technique a great deal your opponent will be much more inclined to simply block or even bomb you out of the firepunch, but this is where Suika's bullets come in.
If you were to do 2A 236A the opponent may choose to just block forever or bomb you. But you could instead do 2A 5C and let the 5C explode, chipping away a great deal of their spirit and life. But wait, there's more! Suika can cancel her 5C into 236A anyway, so she can actually cover herself just in case the opponent attempts to graze forward through the 5C explosion. If they do graze forward, they'll run right into 236A firepunch AND be hit by some of the 5C explosion.
So here's some examples
- 2A/6B > 236A
Natural Suki
- 2A/6B > 5C/6C > 236A
If they block they are likely to block a full C explosion, and if they backdash they could be backdashing right into 6C's explosion. Meanwhile if they graze forward they could graze right into your firepunch melee.
- 2A > 2C > 236B
236B has a lot more autoarmor but punches upwards. I find this useful in the corner because if they jump they will be hit by the firepunch and be knocked upwards into the 2C explosion. The 2C is also exceptionally fast, or at least it can be canceled extremely quickly, so it greatly reduces the chance that they might poke you out of the firepunch. Another added bonus is that the 2C delayed explosion kinda comes after the firepunch, and can actually sort of cover the firepunch recovery time should your opponent simply block.
- D6A > 236A / 214A
Natural Suki. The funny thing about this one is that a lot of people like to try and bomb after the second hit, expecting a firepunch. However if you simply do nothing instead they waste a bomb and risk punishment. Also, 214A can beat bombs at the right distance and also beats blocking, technically. Even if you get hit by a bomb they are technically "wasting" a bomb unless you did firepunch.
So yeah this is turning into a long post so I'll just awkwardly end it here.
Looks like Jolly Ranchers & Baskin's Sherbet.
Re: Touhou Suimusou: IaMP
IaMP: Suika Ibuki, bullet cancel framegap traps
IaMP: All Character corner traps and combos
This is my "latest work", I guess you could say.
This is one of the core intrinsic functionalities in IaMP and it's not very intuitive for a veteran fighting game player. I think most newcomers to the game wonder what the hell is going on when they first experience these kinds of strings.
But, it's really kind of simple. The concept works like; projectiles can be passed through by highjumping or dashing and projectiles can be special/highjump canceled, but melee moves can not be passed through.
So in order to avoid being hit by projectiles when cornered you have to move either forward by dashing or upwards with a highjump, or just sit there and block.
These videos show how characters can either cover either forward movement or upwards movement using various coverage techniques, and what you can do if you hit and what you can do if the opponent simply blocks.
Therefor, the mixup game in IaMP is really rather complicated. It's not as cut-and-dry as high/low/throw but it works very similarly.
First, melee moves can be chained or canceled into bullet moves. So if you cancel one melee attack into a bullet the opponent has the opportunity to pass through the bullets by moving, but if you cancel one melee move into a second melee move you will hit them out of their movement attempt (shown in the Suika video at the end). This creates a bullet/melee mixup that works a lot like a tick throw in other fighters. Except there's a twist; the twist is that bullets can be canceled so even if you begin to try and pass through the opponent's bullets there's a chance you can move in the wrong direction and get hit; which would be like being able to highjump/special cancel whiffed throw attempts in other games (lol).
The other form of mixup is literally high/low melee. The game's melee attacks work kind of like the melee attacks in a 3D fighting game like Tekken or Soul Calibur, where your moves have heights associated with them; most standing attacks hit high and crouching attacks hit low. But this game doesn't immediately break your guard for blocking a move incorrectly, instead it damages your spirit meter when you block incorrectly. The 22x moves are like universal overhead/sweep moves in the game that do 100% spirit meter damage when blocked incorrectly. And once your spirit meter is crushed you get put in a state where you are staggered/stun-reel for a moment and the spirit bar is red. Once you're in this crushed state incorrect blocks become either immediate guard breaks and hit, or put you back in that staggered/stun-reel state, and most moves cause chip damage.
So basically there's three concepts applied here. First, leaving space in which to allow your opponent to attempt to move, in which you counter in order to capitalize on. Second, leaving only a very small gap in which the opponent couldn't possibly move at all, but would become hit if they attempted. And third, using a series of rapid attacks combined with bullet attacks to continue a long series of hits that indirectly punishes blocking and leads to direct punishment.
And there you have it, that's IaMP's point blank game.
Now the midrange is a whole different story which you can see in various excellent tournament match videos found on YouTube.
IaMP: All Character corner traps and combos
This is my "latest work", I guess you could say.
This is one of the core intrinsic functionalities in IaMP and it's not very intuitive for a veteran fighting game player. I think most newcomers to the game wonder what the hell is going on when they first experience these kinds of strings.
But, it's really kind of simple. The concept works like; projectiles can be passed through by highjumping or dashing and projectiles can be special/highjump canceled, but melee moves can not be passed through.
So in order to avoid being hit by projectiles when cornered you have to move either forward by dashing or upwards with a highjump, or just sit there and block.
These videos show how characters can either cover either forward movement or upwards movement using various coverage techniques, and what you can do if you hit and what you can do if the opponent simply blocks.
Therefor, the mixup game in IaMP is really rather complicated. It's not as cut-and-dry as high/low/throw but it works very similarly.
First, melee moves can be chained or canceled into bullet moves. So if you cancel one melee attack into a bullet the opponent has the opportunity to pass through the bullets by moving, but if you cancel one melee move into a second melee move you will hit them out of their movement attempt (shown in the Suika video at the end). This creates a bullet/melee mixup that works a lot like a tick throw in other fighters. Except there's a twist; the twist is that bullets can be canceled so even if you begin to try and pass through the opponent's bullets there's a chance you can move in the wrong direction and get hit; which would be like being able to highjump/special cancel whiffed throw attempts in other games (lol).
The other form of mixup is literally high/low melee. The game's melee attacks work kind of like the melee attacks in a 3D fighting game like Tekken or Soul Calibur, where your moves have heights associated with them; most standing attacks hit high and crouching attacks hit low. But this game doesn't immediately break your guard for blocking a move incorrectly, instead it damages your spirit meter when you block incorrectly. The 22x moves are like universal overhead/sweep moves in the game that do 100% spirit meter damage when blocked incorrectly. And once your spirit meter is crushed you get put in a state where you are staggered/stun-reel for a moment and the spirit bar is red. Once you're in this crushed state incorrect blocks become either immediate guard breaks and hit, or put you back in that staggered/stun-reel state, and most moves cause chip damage.
So basically there's three concepts applied here. First, leaving space in which to allow your opponent to attempt to move, in which you counter in order to capitalize on. Second, leaving only a very small gap in which the opponent couldn't possibly move at all, but would become hit if they attempted. And third, using a series of rapid attacks combined with bullet attacks to continue a long series of hits that indirectly punishes blocking and leads to direct punishment.
And there you have it, that's IaMP's point blank game.
Now the midrange is a whole different story which you can see in various excellent tournament match videos found on YouTube.
Looks like Jolly Ranchers & Baskin's Sherbet.
-
fullmetalross
- Posts: 360
- Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:12 am
Re: Touhou Suimusou: IaMP
Xeno! I have a question. Bell recently posted a suika clip with Block switching.... so to set that up do you just have to get a decent knockdown (like a bomb) and then throw the blackhole and then cr.B? Or is there a trick to it
?
?
Re: Touhou Suimusou: IaMP
Nope, it's really as simple as that and there's actually a couple ways Suika can do it.
While the vortex is sucking the opponent toward it, Suika can use 2B to make the opponent enter blockstun, and then Suika's 2B also moves forward, and the two characters pass through one another due to the vacuum effect of the vortex.
Another way is to use her 214A floaty minis.
However, as far as we know this technique can only be used by Suika, Reimu, and Alice. It may be possible for Youmu to do it as well, but it requires a rather intricate setup. Other characters can only do it using spellcards, like Yukari with Ran and Yuyuko with Ghosts.
But those characters can use it against anyone. The glitch is simply caused by the collision box of a character being removed during certain kinds of hitstop.
While the vortex is sucking the opponent toward it, Suika can use 2B to make the opponent enter blockstun, and then Suika's 2B also moves forward, and the two characters pass through one another due to the vacuum effect of the vortex.
Another way is to use her 214A floaty minis.
However, as far as we know this technique can only be used by Suika, Reimu, and Alice. It may be possible for Youmu to do it as well, but it requires a rather intricate setup. Other characters can only do it using spellcards, like Yukari with Ran and Yuyuko with Ghosts.
But those characters can use it against anyone. The glitch is simply caused by the collision box of a character being removed during certain kinds of hitstop.
Looks like Jolly Ranchers & Baskin's Sherbet.