Cool Stuff That Isn't a Combo

[TomSinister]

This thread is all about cool stuff in fighting games that isn't a combo. Glitches, resets, weird hitboxes--if you find some cool one-off stuff that isn't useful in a combo and want to show it off, this is the place!
Recently I've found some neat stuff that would fit into this thread but not really anywhere else.

Balrog armor cancel U2 can beat a lot of safejumps. U2 only has 1 frame of invincibility, so normally is really bad at blowing up jump ins, however if you armor cancel to absorb the hit of the jump in, its actually quite good. Dirty bull has 3 active frames, meaning it can beat a decent range of different safejump timings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMfjPVXAHqU

I also found this really weird Gouken reset on Seth. I honestly have no idea how it works, but it only works from the player 2 side for some reason.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohPN6AOEIyc



Don't know if there is already a thread like this, but I didn't find anything.

[Pokey86]

Not sure if this is in keeping with the thread... But this was a very very old match i had a long time back,tried to steel a cheap win &.. Well, you can guess.

[TomSinister]

does seth's u1 even do chip damage?

*goes into training mode*

it does not XD

[Maj]

This question might've been answered a long time ago, but can Balrog kara-cancel any of his EX rushes into any other EX rush to get double armor?

[TomSinister]

yeah, he can do ex straight armor/kara cancel into ex upper. dash-low into dash armor-break-up-punch-thing also works

[error1]

I also found this really weird Gouken reset on Seth. I honestly have no idea how it works, but it only works from the player 2 side for some reason.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohPN6AOEIyc

that works on almost everyone I think
http://youtu.be/o22DePR7H4M?t=1m3s

[TomSinister]

@ error1 the reverse j.mk reset works on a bunch of characters, but I the only other character I could get the crossunder to work on is Balrog.

I also made a quick video exploring the properties of unblockable attacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7edkcfkZg0M

I was suprised to find that Gouken's counter is still unblockable if you blockstring into it. I thought it would act like a lvl 3 focus.

[his1nightmare]

Beat that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps4qZLquXno

[error1]

cross counter is also always unblockable, so are feis and cammys counters ( but those are more like throws.)
Goukens counter is technically blockable as far as the game is concerned, but has it has the same hit reaction whether you block it or not.

[TomSinister]

Goukens counter is technically blockable as far as the game is concerned, but has it has the same hit reaction whether you block it or not.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, can you elaborate? If it hits regardless of if you block it or not then doesn't that make it unblockable in every sense of the word?

[error1]

yeah it does, it's just the reason why fa3 is blockable under some conditions but gouken counter isn't
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/353 ... ckable.png
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/353 ... kable2.png

[Doopliss]

How come lv.3 FA is unblockable normally? Does it not have one of those hitboxes that makes the opponent block if they hold back?

[error1]

Its got the unblockable flag in the hitbox
Yeah the 0-76 one

[Doopliss]

Its got the unblockable flag in the hitbox
Yeah the 0-76 one

Ok. I kinda misspoke though, I meant one of those boxes that go out really far from the character, that makes the opponent block if holding back. But then again, if that was why, then he would be able to block it if a projectile was close when he was hit by the lv.3 FA.

[Pokey86]

Its got the unblockable flag in the hitbox
Yeah the 0-76 one

Ok. I kinda misspoke though, I meant one of those boxes that go out really far from the character, that makes the opponent block if holding back. But then again, if that was why, then he would be able to block it if a projectile was close when he was hit by the lv.3 FA.

It's probably to prevent un-escapable situations. (say, pre-preparing a well spaced U1 with Sim & charging focus) Lvl 3 doesn't break guard when hitting someone in blockstun, by the looks of things.

[error1]

Its got the unblockable flag in the hitbox
Yeah the 0-76 one

Ok. I kinda misspoke though, I meant one of those boxes that go out really far from the character, that makes the opponent block if holding back. But then again, if that was why, then he would be able to block it if a projectile was close when he was hit by the lv.3 FA.

yeah that's what the 0-76 one is

[onReload]

nerrrrrrrds

[Doopliss]

Its got the unblockable flag in the hitbox
Yeah the 0-76 one

Ok. I kinda misspoke though, I meant one of those boxes that go out really far from the character, that makes the opponent block if holding back. But then again, if that was why, then he would be able to block it if a projectile was close when he was hit by the lv.3 FA.

yeah that's what the 0-76 one is

Surely you can't block lv.3 FA by simply having something blockable nearby as it connects?

[Doopliss]

What? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTISbHVzbo0

If it's the block animation that cancels the c.HP, then maybe that can be used with projectiles to get extra frame advantage in combos?
EDIT: No, you can't. It's not a cancel, it has something to do with input leniency and that attacking moves have higher move priority than autoblock.

[TomSinister]

What? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTISbHVzbo0

If it's the block animation that cancels the c.HP, then maybe that can be used with projectiles to get extra frame advantage in combos?
EDIT: No, you can't. It's not a cancel, it has something to do with input leniency and that attacking moves have higher move priority than autoblock.

seems like it also gets triggered if you side switch during the OS normal. very odd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRMLexnkKN4

[Doopliss]

Makes sense, since sideswitching also cancelcs crouch delay.

[Q80Warlock]

The only explanation of why this OS happens is probably blocking gives you a few frames of extra special move input buffer. You don't need to whiff moves you can do it from jumping input and maybe post dashing/backdashing too, the only condition seem that you should trigger a block state !

[phoenix]

Hey guys.

I've been looking into the OS with some 60fps recording etc. And I think I've mostly figure out what is going on.

Main reason why I started looking into this, is because all over the internet people are saying that you cancel your recovery short with block. Which is of course ridiculous, because if that was the case, all framedata would be wrong. So I set out to prove people wrong.

So what I did was macro the cr.MK ~ dp+MP OS with Ryu.

We all know that the framedata on cr.MK is 5/5/12, that is 4 startup frames, 5 active frames 12 recovery frames. That is 21 frames of animation in total

So what does the frame per frame stuff look like?

On whiff:
cr.MK comes out, and on the 22nd frame, that is AFTER the recovery, MP is pressed for the dp.

Nothing comes out.

If opponent causes prox block:

cr.MK comes out, and on the 22nd frame, that is AFTER the recovery, startup of dp starts. For some reason the input of db+MP only shows on the 2nd frame of the dp (that is frame 23). But I'm guessing this is an anomaly of the input display of sf4. (I'm not that familiar with the engine).

If you delay the macro by a frame, and make DP press come on the 23rd frame, it always comes out.

But if you make a macro that makes a second MK come out ASAP, it comes out on the 22nd frame

What does this mean?

There is 1 frame after the recovery of a move, that you can cancel into normals, and preblock (and probably a bunch of other stuff), but NOT into special/supers/ultras.

---

Now there is one thing I am still confused about. By testing macro's, I get the impression that the window is 2 frames, not 1 frame. I suspect this has something to do with the negative edge, but seeing as SF4's input display is terrible for this, it's difficult to check. Moreoever I use Automacro, which isn't necessarily frameperfect.

But if it really is negative edge, that's pretty difficult to understand

In frames, there would be two situations:

[Frame 21: Last frame of recovery MK]
[Frame 22: "Magic frame"] Button down MP
[Frame 23: Normal recovered state] Button release MP

You would expect that in this case, the move should come out regardless.

But in the case that you press early:

[Frame 21: Last frame of recovery MK] Button down MP
[Frame 22: "Magic frame"] Button release MP
[Frame 23: Normal recovered state]

You'd expect that only the button release matters.

Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong. Anyone have any ideas?

Perhaps it's just Automacro screwing with me. Someone should check with SF show-off whether it really is a 2 frame window: http://www.slitherware.com/sf4-show-off/

I can't run it for some reason. Probably because I'm on windows XP.

---

Also, I don't want to make a video of this on my youtube, as it would probably be ignored (since I don't do anything with SF4). But if anyone wants to make an in-depth analysis video thing out of this, and finds this explanation convincing. It'd be cool if you'd credit me.

[Doopliss]

Weird indeed. If you were unable to do specials, Ultras etc. directly after normals, then combos like Ken "s.LP, U2", Guile "c.LP, MK Super" or T.Hawk "cl.MP, DP+MP" (couldn't find any better situation to try, it's like they avoid making normal -> Special move a 1-frame link overall) wouldn't work, but they do.

[phoenix]

Ah, yes. I was just wondering about that part.

Did some rerecording.

So if you down-forward, down, down-forward, MP, you can do it on the first frame after recovery

Also if you do down-forward, down, down-forward, hold down+MP

But if you do

down-forward, down, down-forward, hold down-back+MP, you can only do it the second frame after recovery.

That probably means that, to the game down-back crouch is a different 'move' from just 'hold down'.

The upside of this is, that this should be fixable quite easily.

---

Also, I think it's a 1-frame timing thing after all.

[Doopliss]

Huh, that's really weird. Good to know you ever want to link into an RDP-move or something I guess.

[phoenix]

O! That'd be a good test case to see if this hypothesis is correct, too. I'll get back to you once I've attempted a 1 frame link with an rdp

[Edit] Hmm cl.LP, rdp+K works with Fei-long.

[Edit2] Checked to see if it maybe was different for cr.MP. Nope

For fei-long at least, it seems like I was wrong about the 'magic frame' thing too. If you buffer the move to come out as soon as possible regardless of the OS, it just come out the frame after recovery. Same as when you OS it.

Which means that the theory that 'pre-block has a buffer' while 'neutral' doesn't is the best explanation. It's just strange that the pre-block has a buffer thing only increases the buffer by just 1 frame, and not by more, like most other buffers. That bothers me.
---

Okay, I was wondering how the negative edge counted in all this. There is something strange going on.

If you press and hold the buttons of the special, the move ALWAYS comes out with the same timing that the OS works, if you release it instantly. If anyone uses macrolua, just compare these two scripts. This is with fei-long:

w20,1,w60,D2,w12,DL.D._D_L56,w30 <-- this is the OS
w20,1,w60,D2,w12,DL.D._D_L_5_6,w30 <-- this one doesn't work as the OS.

I'm open to suggestions to hear what the hell that means. Haha.

[Q80Warlock]

Ok regarding proximity OS something weird happened yesterday while testing it. Using Zangief I was trying to check if delaying input while empty jumping and landing to DB+Negative Edge(3P) would actually trigger the proximity block just like how whiffing a frame does, the results was weird.

If the game was running at full framerate EX GH comes out no proximity OS. IF the framerate drops the Proximity OS works, Zangief will always land OS (Block or EX GH if there was an attack !)

[error1]

I've done some basic testing, I can't do it consistently, but I'll go along with blocking giving you an input buffer.

[TomSinister]

For some reason the input of db+MP only shows on the 2nd frame of the dp (that is frame 23). But I'm guessing this is an anomaly of the input display of sf4. (I'm not that familiar with the engine).

Inputs in training mode seem to always show up 1 frame after the game executes them. I've tested this a few times with 60 fps recordings.