USF4 Remix (USF4 pc mod) (now 1.0!)

[anotak]

EDIT:
we did a 1.0 it's here
http://www.sf4remix.com/ultra-street-fi ... -released/

end edit

http://www.sf4remix.com/
there's a download for the characters on the right side of the site, along with a download of the new lifebars.
MAKE SURE YOU BACKUP WHATEVER YOU REPLACE SO YOU CAN REVERT TO REGULAR AE2012 but the worst that can happen is that you might have to reinstall ssf4.
if you have ae2012 you put the character folders into ~/patch_1_06/battle/regulation/latest_ae
if you don't have 2012 for whatever reason i think the folder is something else.
the health bars/meters get put into your ssf4 root folder. If you make any videos I'd prefer you have the health bars

of course you need SSF4 for PC to be able to run this mod.

Me and Zeipher (the creator of vanilla sf4 koryu) have been working on this since the release of AE on pc, I know a one or two of you (Doopliss!) have made videos for PC mods in the past, so I figured this might interest you. This is still a beta version so anything is subject to change. We're trying our hardest to avoid infinites and other things of that nature so if you find anything more game-breaking than usual please let me know! If you find anything that is super cool, please let us know about that too, because that would make me happy. If you have an opinion about something in the game I would be happy to hear it too. We're trying to make a fun game that is balanced enough for every character to be as viable as possible. I know that is an unrealistic goal for 2 developers, so that why I'm showing it to smart guys like you!
here's some system changes:
http://www.sf4remix.com/wiki/index.php?title=System

You should be able to play others online who have the exact same modified files installed.

We've worked on Ryu, Ken, E.Honda, Ibuki, Makoto, Dudley, Seth, Gouken, Akuma, Gen, Dan, Sakura, Oni, Juri, Chun-Li, Dhalsim, C.Viper, Cammy, Deejay, Cody, Guy, Hakan, Yang, E.Ryu, Guile, Blanka, Zangief, Rufus, El Fuerte, Balrog,T. Hawk, Adon, and Rose
we haven't touched Yun, Abel, M.Bison, Sagat, Vega, and Fei Long. sorry for the inconvience.

http://www.youtube.com/user/HFB/videos there's some videos on my channel of stuff if you want to see!

if you have any questions, I'll answer them.

[Doopliss]

Sure, I could give it a try.

[error1]

quick look and I can tell you that guile has a few corner infinates

[anotak]

Sure, I could give it a try.

thanks.

quick look and I can tell you that guile has a few corner infinates

is it just of the: normals xx boom, walk forward x N variety? I'm assuming that because the increased walk speed. I didn't make that character and I don't have a computer to test it on here, but i'll tell Zeipher. thanks for letting me know.

There's several ways to fix that I suppose... I told him several times to be careful with sonic boom as that attack is very likely to cause infinites, but I guess he didn't try it in the corner.

[error1]

I'll upload a couple. The easiest ones are by canceling his far hard kick.
I suspect he may have some character specific chain into hard attack, lp sonic boom, dash hk, repeat
but I didn't try it enough to be sure.
Also yeah, that walk speed + being able to cancel kicks means he can do
walkfoward lk, sonic boom. Probably a character specific infinite using that, but I didn't really try it.

[Pokey86]

This the completed product of those videos you've been doing... If so, great. Loved'em so far, you still plan on making the character demo's?

[anotak]

I'll upload a couple. The easiest ones are by canceling his far hard kick.
I suspect he may have some character specific chain into hard attack, lp sonic boom, dash hk, repeat
but I didn't try it enough to be sure.
Also yeah, that walk speed + being able to cancel kicks means he can do
walkfoward lk, sonic boom. Probably a character specific infinite using that, but I didn't really try it.

solutions Zeipher is looking at:
- make lights/hk not cancellable to sonic booms? but other specials yes
- increase boom recovery a little bit? i personally dont like this choice very much
- make boom knockdown and allow juggle after? this feels very un-guile and would maybe leave blockstun infinites (less of a problem because of alpha counters though). but it would fix the problem!

if we cant fix it i'm gonna tell him to decrease guile's walkspeed i guess but i think he's pretty set on it.

This the completed product of those videos you've been doing... If so, great. Loved'em so far, you still plan on making the character demo's?

yes, hopefully with a microphone and full explanations. and thanks! it means a lot to me whenever someone enjoys it

[Doopliss]

The best way to fix guile would probably be to increase knockback on the moves that allows him to do infinites.

[anotak]

The best way to fix guile would probably be to increase knockback on the moves that allows him to do infinites.

well, the move is sonic boom and since it is a projectile, it doesn't knock back in the corner. but yeah i suppose the other normals that allow it should be affected.

[Doopliss]

The best way to fix guile would probably be to increase knockback on the moves that allows him to do infinites.

well, the move is sonic boom and since it is a projectile, it doesn't knock back in the corner. but yeah i suppose the other normals that allow it should be affected.

I mean, stuff like far s.HK brings you forward before cancelling, that could probably be counteracted somehow.

Btw, is T. Hawk supposed to have both supers in U2 mode, but only one in U1? Or am I missing something?

Also, His "super" super does 430, and his "u2" super does 225, they can both be juggled into... again, am I missing something? Unless it's supposed to be almost completely unavoidable and sometimes reset damage scaling, in which case it's understandable. (If it resets or not seems kinda random, just like it was in SSFIVAE).

Also, this should be fixed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x14gVYUmWfU

I suggest lowering the JP of LP Tomahawk (Only LP, there some slightly more balanced tech with the heavier versions you can still use) so that it can only juggle twice, and making EX Tomahawk a little slower so it can't be user afterwards. That or, well, just lower the damage/stun on LP and maybe MP

[error1]

solutions Zeipher is looking at:
- make lights/hk not cancellable to sonic booms? but other specials yes
- increase boom recovery a little bit? i personally dont like this choice very much
- make boom knockdown and allow juggle after? this feels very un-guile and would maybe leave blockstun infinites (less of a problem because of alpha counters though). but it would fix the problem!

if we cant fix it i'm gonna tell him to decrease guile's walkspeed i guess but i think he's pretty set on it.

yeah it's tough, guile is really close to having an infinite in sf4. I think just letting him cancel his far hp with no other changes would give him an infinite, though a super hard and situational one.

Looks like oni has an corner infinite too. Multi hitting fireballs are basically always infinite combos

[error1]

looks like blanka has a blockstring infinite

[error1]

yang has a jab infinate

[Doopliss]

Zangief has an infinite with close s.HK with his back to the corner, at least against Abel, and with one bar, he can easily set ut up when he has his opponent in the corner. (cl.LK, c.LP, s.MP xx RC, far s.HP, far s.HK, walk/dash under under, infinte cl.HK).

I also think cl.MP xx QCF+LK with Guy is an infinite, again on Abel.

Seth QCB+LK is an infinite.

Quite sure Rufus' "cl.HK xx QCB+K,K" is an infinite too if timed well.

error1, you're free to record these, since I'm barely able to. Also, another infinite I was trying to do with Zangief (on Abel in the corner) was "cl.HK, dash-in c.MP xx 2nd hit KKK lariat, repeat", I have no idea if it works overall, but I'm quite sure I hit the c.MP once, you probably need to dash at the first possible frame and do c.MP on the latest possible frame.

[error1]

alright infinites, a few other characters have dashing lp infinites I think
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGA6RjbnPks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwMSGZuBWZA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yRbM0nMyp8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivydnuiBQh8
http://youtu.be/bNZweYX2hMA

[Doopliss]

Lol, try karaing Ken's air LK tatsu to EX tatsu.

Btw anotak, I must say I really like what you guys did with Ryu's U2.

Also, I just had an idea about T.Hawk: You should give him Twelve's X.F.L.A.T super as his U2-super, that would be hilarious.

[anotak]

alright infinites, a few other characters have dashing lp infinites I think
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGA6RjbnPks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwMSGZuBWZA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yRbM0nMyp8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivydnuiBQh8
http://youtu.be/bNZweYX2hMA

okay yeah zeipher is aware of these too now I showed him. That ibuki jump cancel infinite is sick btw, I'm sad i'll have to fix it. As an Ibuki player that's really neat to watch.
I feel dumb for the spinkick one, i swear i tested that repeatedly
On the makoto one are you karaing 6lk into MP? that's really smart way around the pushback. Man you guys are great at this
and man, I really screwed up on Seth, I could've sworn I tested both the throw and the qcb kick move... same w/ gief.

about the ken infinite: I wonder why LK tatsu's 3rd hit doesnt seem to hit on some characters. That's why I didnt notice the infinite is that I tested on ryu and it doesn't hit him so you can't link off the tatsu.

about the dash-related infinites, me and zeipher are thinking of making dashes only cancellable from frame 3 on, that would probably fix a lot of these. I guess this explains why everything is negative frames on later versus series though

Again, We appreciate this a lot! thank you so much.

Lol, try karaing Ken's air LK tatsu to EX tatsu.

Btw anotak, I must say I really like what you guys did with Ryu's U2.

Also, I just had an idea about T.Hawk: You should give him Twelve's X.F.L.A.T super as his U2-super, that would be hilarious.

oh no, that Ken thing I thought I tried that too dammit lol. thanks though! I think I'll put gravity on it at the end so it'll be a "feature" that you can do a ryu-style ex tatsu

yeah Zeipher did a better job than me with a lot of the changed supers imo (He did ryu). Zeipher said T Hawk is mostly incomplete, I'll forward the suggestion about the twelve super. I think its a cool idea too but he's in charge in the end.

[Maj]

Honestly i wouldn't even fix some of these. That Oni combo against crouching Honda is probably harmless, and that Zangief reverse corner infinite is actually kind of cool. If you can tune it so that he gradually pushes away from the corner and only gets a few reps, that would be a nice compromise.

As a general rule, all attacks that move forward on their own (like Guy's running overhead kick) need to have enough pushback that the loosest possible combo timing off a hard attack still creates net positive pushback. Even if that's only a few pixels, it'll prevent true infinites. Then you don't have to worry so much about accounting for specific permutations of the combo flowchart.

about the dash-related infinites, me and zeipher are thinking of making dashes only cancellable from frame 3 on, that would probably fix a lot of these. I guess this explains why everything is negative frames on later versus series though

3 frames probably won't be enough to fix the dash-cancel infinites. In fact, letting people cancel dashes that early is bad for SF4 in general because it leads to a lot of braindead attack pressure. Marvel is built differently from the ground up - air blocking, pushblocking, instant throws, frame disadvantage on almost everything, and a much deeper air game so that you don't have to stay grounded to be effective.

If you really want to keep dash-canceling, here are some suggestions:
1) Make dashes uncancelable for at least 5-8 frames. You might want to try CvS2 rules where dashes become airborne in the middle, and then make them cancelable after the airborne segment ends. Most SF4 dashes look like hops anyway, so that might be an intuitive rule.
2) Maybe add a movement delay to all dashes, so that none of them move forward at all for the first 3 frames. XvSF had a much longer delay and generally didn't have dash-cancel infinites. MvSF eliminiated the delay and had all kinds of dash-cancel infinites.
3) Make sure you kill the momentum of the dash when you cancel into an attack, so you never get Marvel-style sliding attacks.
4) Maybe when you perform a dash-cancel, the attack gets increased pushback.

By the way, showing Ibuki's entire ultra-2 as shadows of off-camera action was a really cool idea.

[anotak]

Honestly i wouldn't even fix some of these. That Oni combo against crouching Honda is probably harmless, and that Zangief reverse corner infinite is actually kind of cool. If you can tune it so that he gradually pushes away from the corner and only gets a few reps, that would be a nice compromise.

As a general rule, all attacks that move forward on their own (like Guy's running overhead kick) need to have enough pushback that the loosest possible combo timing off a hard attack still creates net positive pushback. Even if that's only a few pixels, it'll prevent true infinites. Then you don't have to worry so much about accounting for specific permutations of the combo flowchart.

Those are some good suggestions, I'll see what I can do.

about the dash-related infinites, me and zeipher are thinking of making dashes only cancellable from frame 3 on, that would probably fix a lot of these. I guess this explains why everything is negative frames on later versus series though

3 frames probably won't be enough to fix the dash-cancel infinites. In fact, letting people cancel dashes that early is bad for SF4 in general because it leads to a lot of braindead attack pressure. Marvel is built differently from the ground up - air blocking, pushblocking, instant throws, frame disadvantage on almost everything, and a much deeper air game so that you don't have to stay grounded to be effective.

If you really want to keep dash-canceling, here are some suggestions:
1) Make dashes uncancelable for at least 5-8 frames. You might want to try CvS2 rules where dashes become airborne in the middle, and then make them cancelable after the airborne segment ends. Most SF4 dashes look like hops anyway, so that might be an intuitive rule.
2) Maybe add a movement delay to all dashes, so that none of them move forward at all for the first 3 frames. XvSF had a much longer delay and generally didn't have dash-cancel infinites. MvSF eliminiated the delay and had all kinds of dash-cancel infinites.
3) Make sure you kill the momentum of the dash when you cancel into an attack, so you never get Marvel-style sliding attacks.
4) Maybe when you perform a dash-cancel, the attack gets increased pushback.

By the way, showing Ibuki's entire ultra-2 as shadows of off-camera action was a really cool idea.

Well, we really wanted the gameplay to feel very different from SF4 (or even any SF game). Braindead attack pressure... yeah, I suppose that's true, but really don't try to think of it as a street fighter game. We also added alpha counters for this reason... and it being sf4 engine, we don't have access to the reversal window so mash shoryu will be an option against dash pressure. We also increased the throw tech window greatly.
they aren't as strong as marvel series dashes because:
- can't block from dash
- Dash momentum is always killed except with oiled Hakan and Oni
- no wavedash (except gen sorta)
- many chars can't jump from dash.
A lot of chars have buffed air game too like you mentioned. jumps are generally slightly better, and some characters have airdashes or flight mode, and other tools to change air movement. We're still experimenting with a delay getup or other tools like that to help get out of pressure too.

For what it is worth, when my laptop could run ssf4 I took it to a few tournaments and I still have people location test at our weekly gatherings with about 5 people playing it on a weekly basis and the dash attacking has been received overwhelmingly positively (which isn't something I can say for anything else in the game). FR Dickslicer is a local player who has top16'd several sf4 majors, won HDR last final round, and placed 3rd in at least one guilty gear #reload major over marn and flashmetroid, and he is a big supporter of the dash attacks.

in short: yes, it is "braindead", but so far the fun has outweighed the negative from that, and I would really like to try my hardest to keep it.

[Doopliss]

Btw, which characters do you guys feel are the most complete? I'd rather test those characters than the ones that are semi-finished.

[anotak]

Btw, which characters do you guys feel are the most complete? I'd rather test those characters than the ones that are semi-finished.

well, despite any infinites... on my side Dhalsim, Ibuki, Zangief, Evil Ryu (planning on changing up the air fireball some though), Rose (i'm probably going to adjust damage on satellite though), Makoto, Sakura (if you figure out what glitch causes her opponent's inputs to lock up I would be very happy, I still can't figure out what causes it), Seth, Balrog, and Chun (ignoring the meter gain thing). Most of the characters should be pretty playable though, even if I didn't list them. Most of Zeipher's are pretty playable too.

I apologize for the incompleteness but I wanted to get this to you guys now because it is pretty playable but I wanted y'all to have time to experiment and break the game. I fully expected it to be broken.... I just didn't expect it would take y'all a few hours to find this many infinites though

here's this:
(05:56:06) anotak: "Btw, which characters do you guys feel are the most complete? I'd rather test those characters than the ones that are semi-finished."
(05:56:29) anotak: do u have an answer to that
(05:56:47) Zeipher: ryu, yang i feel is very finished
(05:56:58) Zeipher: just had to fix that one thing
(05:57:04) Zeipher: umm
(05:57:28) Zeipher: c.viper
(05:57:35) Zeipher: adon

[Doopliss]

Btw, which characters do you guys feel are the most complete? I'd rather test those characters than the ones that are semi-finished.

well, despite any infinites... on my side Dhalsim, Ibuki, Zangief, Evil Ryu (planning on changing up the air fireball some though), Rose (i'm probably going to adjust damage on satellite though), Makoto, Sakura (if you figure out what glitch causes her opponent's inputs to lock up I would be very happy, I still can't figure out what causes it), Seth, Balrog, and Chun (ignoring the meter gain thing). Most of the characters should be pretty playable though, even if I didn't list them. Most of Zeipher's are pretty playable too.

I apologize for the incompleteness but I wanted to get this to you guys now because it is pretty playable but I wanted y'all to have time to experiment and break the game. I fully expected it to be broken.... I just didn't expect it would take y'all a few hours to find this many infinites though

here's this:
(05:56:06) anotak: "Btw, which characters do you guys feel are the most complete? I'd rather test those characters than the ones that are semi-finished."
(05:56:29) anotak: do u have an answer to that
(05:56:47) Zeipher: ryu, yang i feel is very finished
(05:56:58) Zeipher: just had to fix that one thing
(05:57:04) Zeipher: umm
(05:57:28) Zeipher: c.viper
(05:57:35) Zeipher: adon

Ok, thanks. Btw, on that Sakura thing, I noticed Oni has a similar thing, I'd use turbo and then try to do j.HP to c.HP, and then I couldn't do heavies until I stopped crouching. Works if I delayn the c.HP slightly. I also noticed some weird glitch with T.Hawk where, if I did grab cancelled to DP+K, the opponent would hit the groud instantly after the DP+K, and then I could restand them or do another DP+K. I did it on Ryu or Dhalsim, but I can't replicate it now for some reason.

[Maj]

in short: yes, it is "braindead", but so far the fun has outweighed the negative from that, and I would really like to try my hardest to keep it.

Oh, i think you misunderstood. I like dash-canceling as a concept too. It's certainly not braindead in Marvel and neither is run-canceling in CvS2. But it does have the potential for braindead exploits if someone finds a way to abuse it, like that Blanka blockstun lockdown.

The whole point of fighting games is that both players constantly interact in real time. Anything that threatens that principle is massively detrimental to gameplay quality. It's just a little extra work to iron out that kind of stuff if you want to keep dash-canceling, because nobody wants to let go of the controller and stay blocking for 30 seconds. That's why everyone hates infinites and long match-practical combos in fighting games that they actively play, because every time it happens to you, it makes you want to quit playing the game.

Whenever you're designing a fighting game, you always have to balance how cool it is to do something against how bad it feels to get hit by that thing.

[anotak]

Maj, I posted in the other thread too but is it alright if Zeipher registers here so he can use this thread?
edit: you ninja'd me so let me read what you said and respond

Ok, thanks. Btw, on that Sakura thing, I noticed Oni has a similar thing, I'd use turbo and then try to do j.HP to c.HP, and then I couldn't do heavies until I stopped crouching. Works if I delayn the c.HP slightly. I also noticed some weird glitch with T.Hawk where, if I did grab cancelled to DP+K, the opponent would hit the groud instantly after the DP+K, and then I could restand them or do another DP+K. I did it on Ryu or Dhalsim, but I can't replicate it now for some reason.

hm, weird. I'll see if I can replicate it at all.

[anotak]

in short: yes, it is "braindead", but so far the fun has outweighed the negative from that, and I would really like to try my hardest to keep it.

Oh, i think you misunderstood. I like dash-canceling as a concept too. It's certainly not braindead in Marvel and neither is run-canceling in CvS2. But it does have the potential for braindead exploits if someone finds a way to abuse it, like that Blanka blockstun lockdown.

The whole point of fighting games is that both players constantly interact in real time. Anything that threatens that principle is massively detrimental to gameplay quality. It's just a little extra work to iron out that kind of stuff if you want to keep dash-canceling, because nobody wants to let go of the controller and stay blocking for 30 seconds. That's why everyone hates infinites and long match-practical combos in fighting games that they actively play, because every time it happens to you, it makes you want to quit playing the game.

Whenever you're designing a fighting game, you always have to balance how cool it is to do something against how bad it feels to get hit by that thing.

I agree 100% on that. A lot of the dashes don't actually move forward immediately, and yeah I'm trying really hard to let both players have answers. I want to avoid any infinites (hitstun or otherwise) for exactly that reason. We'll try our best to tweak it so that it's right. We're trying really hard to balance it.

We've actually tried to implement pushblocking but we haven't been able to figure out a way to create new animation scripts that allow the player to block during them. Copying and pasting the existing blockstun scripts just lets the opponent hit you, so it seems like it is hardcoded somehow unfortunately.

Also, in regards to the Oni vs crouching honda thing, Zeipher said he is making the fireball force stand. Seems like a decent solution to me.

[Zeipher]

Hi, it's me.

I've been working on fixing the stuff i've seen from error1 and others today (There was a recent something awful casual tourney in it, which was nice for figuring out how the characters work with actual players).

I had an inkling about some of the infinites, i've just been busy with real life stuff. I also don't test each character that thoroughly before I move on, There's been sort of a "gotta finish this character then move on to the next then we'll tweak them when we're finished" workflow going on.

I really appreciate you guys taking an interest in remix, I'm not really a combo guy myself, and I don't have solid execution at all, so it's really nice to have someone with good execution helping us iron out some of the BS.

Also, in regards to the Oni vs crouching honda thing, Zeipher said he is making the fireball force stand. Seems like a decent solution to me.

I said it'll cause knockdown. Oni's got normals that force stand that let you get the regular effect from those fireballs anyway, so it's a decent compromise IMO.

[Smileymike101]

Let his fireballs as they are.I mean, it works like on what, 2 or 3 crouching characters?Not worth it to change a character JUST for that.Let him remain fun.

[error1]

On the makoto one are you karaing 6lk into MP?

yes 6lk. Ryu's is pretty good too

[error1]

Let his fireballs as they are.I mean, it works like on what, 2 or 3 crouching characters?Not worth it to change a character JUST for that.Let him remain fun.

you're just saying that beacuse you don't play honda, how about I get it to work on dudley and your gonna change your tune.

[Zeipher]

By knockdown I mean, it puts opponent in juggle state. You can follow it up for good damage, but it means I can keep the fb working as it should, without making it cause infinites with honda's hurtbox.

I went back and forth from 2 hits to 1 hit to having it only work on standing opponents, and I really don't want to increase the recovery on it to accomodate the 2nd hit.