SSF4:AE2012 Combo Engine Investigation

[Dark_Chaotix]

i know what it is, i just want to know why, but if you are saying it was present in another game (sf may it be) what was it? Ive only heard about the term option select since sf4 soo im aware it was in other games.

[Maj]

Every fighting game has option selects. It just takes time to find effective ones. For example in KoF games, after you block a jump attack, you can press Back+C to escape a throw or to anti-air another short jump.

As for why option selects are more prevalent in SF4 than any other fighting game, that's kind of a complicated question and i'm not sure anyone has a complete answer. Though it has a lot to do with all the input buffering and weird command priority flowcharts.

I think the term "option select" was coined during the 3S era, when people figured out that you could tech throws while crouching. I remember there was an article about that technique written on SRK, back when the entire fighting game community produced four articles a year.

[Smileymike101]

It may be because backdashes have invincibility here.

[jamheald]

OSs go so far, any character with close/far normals has inbuilt OSs in there standing normals.

[Dark_Chaotix]

Every fighting game has option selects. It just takes time to find effective ones. For example in KoF games, after you block a jump attack, you can press Back+C to escape a throw or to anti-air another short jump.

As for why option selects are more prevalent in SF4 than any other fighting game, that's kind of a complicated question and i'm not sure anyone has a complete answer. Though it has a lot to do with all the input buffering and weird command priority flowcharts.

I think the term "option select" was coined during the 3S era, when people figured out that you could tech throws while crouching. I remember there was an article about that technique written on SRK, back when the entire fighting game community produced four articles a year.

I wouldn't call that kof example an option select being that you would still be in block stun after the attack and cant get thrown straight away. Id call that more of a frame trap if anything...

Plus, the way i figure option select in SF4 was a win / win in a given situation. You input a notation, you would be granted the "best" option that benefits you or am i wrong?

Anyways, my rant on this is because I just wanted to know why some idiot decided to think of something like this to have a game as I heard that kof XIII has it in the game.

Where are a few powerful option select in kof XIII like Maxima's one :
Safe jump hop C,qcbqcb.AC
If the C land it's comboing into air ex vapor canon, if it's guarded you're safe, if the opponent rolls forward you hit him with the sdm if he rolls backward you hit him with a Ex vapor canon, if the opponent use an invincible move it's safe jumped

Forget the situation since its not really viable but knowing that this exist kills me. Kof has always been a game of precise execution and it didnt need some shit notation gimmick for rewarding a player an option when he didnt even input it in. Programmer that did this should die!

[error1]

a programer didn't do it
why can't you do that in kof 2000?

[Raine]

Every fighting game has some form of option select, it's just a lot more practical in SF4 due to the mechanics of the input engine. Another basic example of a KoF option select would be using Clark and jumping in with b/f+AC. If the opponent trys to jump away you will get an airgrab, if they don't then you get j.A. You can do it on the ground as well although it's only useful for certain characters e.g. Athena could go for a grab with b/f+AC and if they are not in a throwable state then you will get a cl.A rather than cl.C. Something like the Maxima example is probably possible in earlier KoF but it may not be practical due to the input windows. KoFXIII in general is much more lenient which is why you might see option selects like this becoming more viable.

[Dark_Chaotix]

a programer didn't do it

Im aware that Option Select is basically taking advantage of the leniency of doing notation and inputs in the engine, but surely if you commit to a particular notation the game should read it and still apply it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL2zpySSymE

I dont know if this still applies but I cant see why considered "depth". If you commit to a move and it fails you should be punished for it.

why can't you do that in kof 2000?

Show me some or for any kof for that matter....

Every fighting game has some form of option select, it's just a lot more practical in SF4 due to the mechanics of the input engine. Another basic example of a KoF option select would be using Clark and jumping in with b/f+AC. If the opponent trys to jump away you will get an airgrab, if they don't then you get j.A. You can do it on the ground as well although it's only useful for certain characters e.g. Athena could go for a grab with b/f+AC and if they are not in a throwable state then you will get a cl.A rather than cl.C. Something like the Maxima example is probably possible in earlier KoF but it may not be practical due to the input windows. KoFXIII in general is much more lenient which is why you might see option selects like this becoming more viable.

That example is still different from what Im talking about. Im aware of the above but it only works cos they dont have a whiff animation for the throw. Again, im talking about committing to an actual notation.

[Rufus]

Im aware that Option Select is basically taking advantage of the leniency of doing notation and inputs in the engine, but surely if you commit to a particular notation the game should read it and still apply it.

Actually, option selects don't have to be at all about input leniency. In many games, there are option selects that work because the timing is different when a move hits or misses. (Which is the case in the video.)

[Dark_Chaotix]

Maybe leniency isnt the best word, but that is the only think that comes to mind. But you are right, whiff moves end quicker then moves being blocked or on hit. That said, having input a move to work within a few frames of an attack whiffing to then be negated on hit still isnt right to me. The move should still come out of at the expensive of an error of judgement by the player.

[Pokey86]

Maybe leniency isnt the best word, but that is the only think that comes to mind. But you are right, whiff moves end quicker then moves being blocked or on hit. That said, having input a move to work within a few frames of an attack whiffing to then be negated on hit still isnt right to me. The move should still come out of at the expensive of an error of judgement by the player.

That would mean the designers would have to add a function to remove OS's

I like OS's, what's wrong with covering more angles, especially in SFIV where characters have a multitude of ways to escape wake-up pressure. Hell some people i play NEVER block on wake-up, even some of the good ones. Why would they when they can

- Mash backdash
- Mash Teleport
- Mash (EX) I-Frame Move/EX Dash Punch/Chicken Wing/EX SBK/Random GTFO move/Random Ultra
- Mash Crouch Tech

& while option selects are good they don't cover all ground.

OS Sweep only beats backdash & even then not everyone (Hello Ibuki)
OS SRK doesn't beat teleports, & is punishable with most teleports (Bison)
OS Tatsu has to be timed very well to beat a teleport going the other way
OS Tatsu VS Bison is hard as fuck to not trade with if they opts for EX Psycho Crusher, & loses to EX Legs

the above are fairly common OS's, it's handy when you discover one no one knows as they tend to blindside people. to this day the only OS i know of that covers literally every option is Akumas OS Palm (U2 or Late sweep) VS Balrogs anything

[Dark_Chaotix]

That would mean the designers would have to add a function to remove OS's

You prob just have to have the engine recognise the inputs even if its a few frames apart. Kof has that....

I like OS's, what's wrong with covering more angles, especially in SFIV where characters have a multitude of ways to escape wake-up pressure.

It maybe ok to use in SF4 because that game is bland when it comes to tools against pressure. But kof already has things in place to deal with pressure etc.

Anyways, my main purpose was to find out about this option select that SF4 has because it has now found its way to Kof and I really dont know why....

Thanks for the insight and info.

[onReload]

That would mean the designers would have to add a function to remove OS's

You prob just have to have the engine recognise the inputs even if its a few frames apart. Kof has that....

So if you knock your opponent down in a fighter, stand over them and input forward + heavy attack, then isn't that OS because if they stand up quickly enough, it could be a throw, and if they don't, then it's a meaty attack?...that kind of thing is universal to fighters with those inputs, and the engine IS recognizing the inputs. I don't mean this to sound rude (honestly) but are you sure you know what option selects are? It's just one set of inputs, then depending on what your opponent does, the game treats it as though you specifically chose one situation. You can't take them out, really

[Maj]

What i can't believe is that there's no option select tutorial vids for any KoF games whatsoever. That could've ended this whole debate at the start, but i guess nobody in the SNK community wants to explore them?

[Pokey86]

So if you knock your opponent down in a fighter, stand over them and input forward + heavy attack, then isn't that OS because if they stand up quickly enough, it could be a throw, and if they don't, then it's a meaty attack?...that kind of thing is universal to fighters with those inputs, and the engine IS recognizing the inputs. I don't mean this to sound rude (honestly) but are you sure you know what option selects are? It's just one set of inputs, then depending on what your opponent does, the game treats it as though you specifically chose one situation. You can't take them out, really

Good point, i had this argument via MSN a while ago... I, in short, said:

ME: Yeah I Option Select Shuouken in those long range MK's i do, it's why i keep tagging you with my "unsafe" uppercuts

Mr X: That's not an option select, that's just buffering a special in a normal.

ME: Does it not cover multiple situations

& it goes on.

[Dark_Chaotix]

So if you knock your opponent down in a fighter, stand over them and input forward + heavy attack, then isn't that OS because if they stand up quickly enough, it could be a throw, and if they don't, then it's a meaty attack?...that kind of thing is universal to fighters with those inputs, and the engine IS recognizing the inputs. I don't mean this to sound rude (honestly) but are you sure you know what option selects are? It's just one set of inputs, then depending on what your opponent does, the game treats it as though you specifically chose one situation. You can't take them out, really

You guys are missing what Im trying to say....Forget about "if he stands f+C will throw, if he jumps it hits him" as Im not talking about that those "already obvious option selects". I DID mention that I was talking about notations (as in special moves) that somehow get negated depending on the situation.

I have you know that you can't throw someone as the get up if they DONT tech roll straight away as there are frames that dont allow it, but if they tech roll you can.

Ok for argument sake, why in this example ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfNfSWZ6csQ ) doesnt the DM come out on block and only lk does? If the engine IS recognising the inputs then shouldn't the DM come out regardless? You are doing the motion and the button presses that associate to the DM yet it doesnt...................................

Anyways, forget I asked because Im not getting the help I desired. Ill refrain from asking something like this here again.

[Maj]

That happens because ultras can't cancel normal moves in SF4. But really, all you need for that to happen is a normal move that can't be canceled. I'm pretty sure you could come up with a direct equivalent of that exact same option select in KoF if you thought about it for 30 seconds.

Dude, it's cool if you hate SF4, but this is getting a little irrational. Option selects exist in KoF, just like they exist in every other fighting game. The only reason we don't have more sophisticated examples is because nobody in the SNK community has bothered to figure them out for whatever reason. Probably because most KoF games have more dominant offensive techniques that you're better off learning instead.

But that doesn't mean option selects don't exist in KoF. It's damn near impossible to build a fighting game that has no option selects whatsoever. You'd have to make it your #1 priority above all else. But nobody was talking about option selects in 1997, so it's a pretty safe bet that SNK wasn't thinking about avoiding option selects when they made KoF98.

The definition of option select is: a single command sequence that automatically produces two or more favorable results based on the opponent's actions. If you have one input that does two different things depending on the situation, that's an option select. That's all it means. It doesn't have to be perfect, it doesn't have to be unbeatable, it doesn't have to cover all the options. It just has to cover more than one.

The first example i gave like fifteen posts ago is a classic example of a simple defensive option select. And by the way, i got it from a KoF thread on SRK, so i'm not just making stuff up. If you don't like that one, here's another example with Chris:

O Chris has a pretty good option select with his close D and hcf+K. Use f+D in some throw situations upclose. If they do nothing, you will throw them, if they jump, close D will anti-air them. ALso, if a close D comes out when they are on the ground, you should always cancel it to hcf+K since hcf+K only comes out if they get hit by the close D and if they blocked it, nothing happens.

The potential for option selects has been around forever. That hasn't changed. The only thing that's changed is the way people explore new fighting games. Nowadays people look for option selects, because SF4 taught everyone that they're good.

[Pokey86]

Anyways, forget I asked because Im not getting the help I desired. Ill refrain from asking something like this here again.

I do love it when people blame the crowd for not siding with them

My combo video doesn't suck... You all suck!

[Smileymike101]

Guys, why have we all started arguing so much?Cant we all just be friends?

[Snoooootch]

One day we'll look back and thing, "Damn, that 2011 was a dark time." lol

[Pokey86]

Why? can you not disagree with someone & still be friends?

[Maj]

Dark time? Haha really?

I just have fun trying to write solid arguments. This kind of stuff never seems personal to me. As far as i'm concerned, there's only one "serious thread" on this whole forum and it's pretty much dead now. Apart from that, we're all just collectively trying to figure stuff out. Even when we have heated discussions, everyone seems to cool down in a few days and things return to normal. It's only video games after all.

Anyway my goal is never to make anyone look bad. I just focus on answering the question at the heart of the debate and then trying to express myself as soundly as possible. But then that turns into a grammar exercise, so maybe my sentences end up sounding more serious than my actual mood - just because i'm moving words around and restructuring phrases so much. But that's the only way i can enjoy writing. Otherwise i get bored really quickly.

[onReload]

DC I get if you don't like those complicated OS techniques, since I don't really like them either - and they get REALLY weird in Third Strike, with complicated ones called "SGGK"s...but you don't NEED them, really.

I'll try one more example, it's another simple one, but it's not as simple as throw/standing C; I'm sure any KoF with supercanceling has the "DED" option select, where you use a supercancelable move, but it will only gain you enough meter to do a super if it connects unblocked (since in many games, you get less meter for getting a blocked hit)...

So, you have 89% meter or something. You input an attack followed by the DM:

-If they get hit, you gain a chunk of meter putting you from 0 bars to 1 bar, and then your DM comes out the way you inputted it.
-If they block the attack, you don't get enough meter to do a DM, so even though you did the DM input, your character CAN'T do the DM, and you just get a blocked attack.

(I know that this won't be common in KoF XIII since you have meter a lot of the time...)

[Pokey86]

The thing is even if you say, increased input leniency during block stun. (For example where you had 6 frames after the motion to hit the trigger button, this would pause during block stun) people would still discover OS's

OS's relate to so many facets of the game that alot of them arn't even called OS's

Seth doing an HP SRK on someones wake-up beats

- Back dash (doesn't beat Makoto's)
- In most cases, the opponents reversal SRK
- Throw Tech
- Random mashing
- Command grabs
- Most random super/ultras

Which means this alone beats more of your opponents options than some actual Option Selects do. & there is no way you could stop this from happening in game, unless you removed wake-up pressure.

It's also why high level Seth players resort to wake-up SRK pressure more than any other, because it is simply an exceptionally strong tool (beating able to beat nearly all "GTFO moves" in the game)

[Maj]

Why's it called "DED" option select?

...but you don't NEED them, really.

The funny thing is, that Maxima option select might actually be terrible. But anyone from an SF4 background is naturally conditioned to look for option selects in a new game, so the phrase "option select" will dominate a lot of the discussion early on.

At least until people figure out how the damn game is supposed to be played. That's normal though. Everyone brings their own background into new games. I'm sure Keiko always checks if Alpha Counters are good when trying any new game for the first time.

[onReload]

Yeah I was going to say, people who spend time looking for OS techniques might be missing out on the important strategy. Or people who think it's all good to roll in certain games might find out that rolling too much in KoF/JJBA is a bad, bad idea.

I have no idea why it's called D.E.D.; I barely remember what SGGK stood for and if you google like ""SGGK" +"what it stands for"" you'll get a lot of people scratching their heads...I just figure OK, that's how people call it, sure. you CVS2 folk with your "roll cancel" and "shosho" have it easy. The hell is "maha tandem"?

[Pokey86]

wtf is Shosho?

In fact... i'll use this thread


Wtf is an Oki situation?

Wtf is an ume-shoryu (SRK'ing Sims limbs?)?

WTF is ukizeme??

Why do pro players always have "amazing reads" via commentators & never "lucky guess"?

Why does Shin-Shoryuken in SF-Alpha 3 need such precise spacing to get half decent damage, what possible application is there for that?

Why do i really suck at MVC3 when i only kinda suck on SFIV?

Why do so many third strike players act so elitist? as if it's the most balanced game in the world.

I'm just salty cause i'm an 09'er

There are more but they're not springing to mind.

[Maj]

This is ShoSho. It rocks P-Groove and K-Groove because they don't have Alpha Counters, so they can't get out of the block damage / guard crush variant.

Ume-Shoryu is short for Umehara Shoryuken. It's a lame Daigo fanboy version of Psychic DP.

Okizeme is a Virtua Fighter term or something, which refers to situations where one character is on the ground and the other is standing. In VF and Tekken, the standing character can hit the opponent on the ground, so they have to be clever to stand up without taking damage.

The term was also (incorrectly) adopted to SF, just meaning basic wakeup situations. That's what Oki situation means too.

Nobody uses ShinSho in SFA3. It's there for flavor, like Alex's Spiral DDT.

[Pokey86]

That's what ume-shoryu means? wow, underwhelming.

that sho-sho looks ace, & yeah the name kind of explains it. I'll bet that does a shit-ton of chip damage.

EDIT - I don't know much about Cap VS SNK, but that combo video was great fun to watch. I always wondered why in Alpha 3, & what looks like Cap VS SNK, they let you cancel out of Level 2 Supers. I mean didn't that just instantly make them better than level 3 Supers?

[Maj]

You couldn't cancel lvl2 supers in Alpha 3. That's only possible in CvS2 and only in C-Groove, and it's one of the unique features of that groove. You can definitely get more damage out of a lvl2 cancel than a lvl3, so it's very useful. But lvl3 supers provide a lot more startup invincibility, and some of the best supers in the game are lvl3 only - like Sonic Hurricane, Gigaton Punch, and Raging Demon.

C-Groove charges meter pretty quickly so being able to get lvl3 damage out of lvl2 meter is one of its strengths, but K-Groove still gets like two lvl3's per round compared to 3-4 levels for C-Groove, so it balances out. In terms of groove rankings, A-Groove is the best - but then K and C are tied for second and not too far behind.