Turbo Frameskip vs Normal Speed

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Maj
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Turbo Frameskip vs Normal Speed

Post by Maj »

I'm dreading the transition from Turbo speed to Normal speed, but i feel like it's only a matter of time before we all have to switch over. Everything looks so damn unfamiliar moving at Normal speed, but the benefits are obvious. Nearly all the major Japanese combo makers have used Normal speed to avoid frameskip entirely. And some of it is laziness because many of those combos could've been done on Turbo speed, but it's hard to blame them.

The only guaranteed way to build combos is to test them on Normal speed, then try to convert them to Turbo speed and see if they're possible with frameskip. On average, this method should save time over the long term. But it's too much of a hassle for me (plus i'm stubborn about these things).

Turbo frameskip does make some combos completely impossible, but it took me like three years before i ran into one. Or rather, i ran into a bunch of problems but always maneuvered around them. While it seems more likely for very long combos (aka Marvel) to run into impossible frameskip configurations, in my experience it's actually easier work around them with all the flexibility you get in the Marvel series.

Basically, if one frameskip pattern doesn't work for you, try another one. Anytime you have a 2-frame window in the middle of your combo, you have two frameskip configurations to choose from for the rest of the combo. (Obviously this won't apply if you're trying to make the world's first 99 hit 1-frame-only Marvel combo, but there aren't too many of those floating around.)

More commonly, Turbo frameskip really kills you in tiny, compact sequences that require two or three 1-frame timings in quick succession. Keiko and i were trying to figure out this zerokoubou SFZ2A Ken combo back in February, and it turned out to be completely impossible on default speed (Turbo 2).

It looks simple, but i spent hours trying to work around frameskip and got nowhere. Meaty c.HP to c.MP is a 1-frame link, and the j.HK to c.HP transition requires 1-frame timing for c.HP to connect on the last frame. Text from an old email:
Alright so i tested it on default speed (Turbo 2) from W60 to W70, optimizing each one, and none of them worked. In fact, the pattern repeated every three frames, so i'm guessing that Turbo 2 skips every fourth frame. Anyway i'm convinced that this combo is simply impossible on Turbo 2 speed.

Here's what the Normal speed script looks like:

W10,-_D.W60,+U.W36,6.W5,-3.W19,+D3.W42,D2.W60!

Rolento's c.HP is flexible - he can do it a couple of frames early or later and it won't affect anything. So we can take that out:

W60,U.W36,6.W25,D3.W42,D2.W60!

That leaves three critical wait times: W36, W25, and W42 - with inputs falling on the 37th frame, 63rd frame, and 106th frame after the jump.

Now every fourth frame is disregarded on Turbo 2 speed. That means we have four possible frameskip configurations, starting from the U input:

U frame skips = automatic failure

U frame registers, 1st frame skips, frames 2-4 register, 5th frame skips, frames 6-8 register, 9th frame skips, frames 10-12 register, 13th frame skips, frames 14-16 register, 17th frame skips, frames 18-20 register, 21st frame skips, frames 22-24 register, 25th frame skips, frames 26-28 register, 29th frame skips, frames 30-32 register, 33rd frame skips, frames 34-36 register, 37th frame skips = j.HK fails

U frame registers, 1st frame registers, 2nd frame skips, frames 3-5 register, 6th frame skips, frames 7-9 register, 10th frame skips, frames 11-13 register, 14th frame skips, frames 15-17 register, 18th frame skips, frames 19-21 register, 22nd frame skips, frames 23-25 register, 26th frame skips, frames 27-29 register, 30th frame skips, frames 31-33 register, 34th frame skips, frames 35-37 register (j.HK registers), 38th frame skips, frames 39-41 register, 42nd frame skips, frames 43-45 register, 46th frame skips, frames 47-49 register, 50th frame skips, frames 51-53 register, 54th frame skips, frames 55-57 register, 58th frame skips, frames 59-61 register, 62nd frame skips, frames 63-65 register (c.HP registers), 66th frame skips, frames 67-69 register, 70th frame skips, frames 71-73 register, 74th frame skips, frames 75-77 register, 78th frame skips, frames 79-81 register, 82nd frame skips, frames 83-85 register, 86th frame skips, frames 87-89 register, 90th frame skips, frames 91-93 register, 94th frame skips, frames 95-97 register, 98th frame skips, frames 99-101 register, 102nd frame skips, frames 103-105 register, 106th frame skips = c.MP fails

U frame registers, frames 1-2 register, 3rd frame skips, frames 4-6 register, 7th frame skips, frames 8-10 register, 11th frame skips, frames 12-14 register, 15th frame skips, frames 16-18 register, 19th frame skips, frames 20-22 register, 23rd frame skips, frames 24-26 register, 27th frame skips, frames 28-30 register, 31st frame skips, frames 32-34 register, 35th frame skips, frames 36-38 register (j.HK registers), 39th frame skips, frames 40-42 register, 43rd frame skips, frames 44-46 register, 47th frame skips, frames 48-50 register, 51st frame skips, frames 52-54 register, 55th frame skips, frames 56-58 register, 59th frame skips, frames 60-62 register, 63rd frame skips = c.HP fails

So we have four different cases and in each of the cases something fails, meaning that the sequence is completely impossible in Turbo 2.

What i don't understand is why c.LP doesn't work either, since c.HP to c.LP is a 2-frame link. It should be able to connect on both the 106th and 107th frames. That doesn't make sense at all. Maybe there's another restriction that i'm overlooking? Or maybe there is a way to make the c.LP version connect?

Anyway, it's very rare to have so many 1-frame inputs so close together, with such strange wait times inbetween them. None of them share any factors - 37 and 43 are both prime numbers and 26 is only divisible by 2 and 13, another prime number.
So yeah, beware prime numbers!
Raine
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Re: Turbo Frameskip vs Normal Speed

Post by Raine »

I wish frameskip was never invented and it saddens me that turbo speed settings are the defacto standard for the majority of Capcom games that have them. I don't care what the community is used to, I will never program combos on a turbo setting when normal is available.
Keiko
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Re: Turbo Frameskip vs Normal Speed

Post by Keiko »

First of all, figuring out how does the Zero Koubou backwards works was a real pain in the ass, years of exploration (no jokes) and i never had the idea of switching the game to normal speed until we figure it out that glorious day for the combo history (lol), but as a sidenote to this, due to the obscene quantity of perfect 1 frame links, they're impossible to do manually, some sort of tool assistance is a must to complete the combo, specially in the meaty C.Fierce part, so i had to surrender myself to the power of macrolua.
Another example of how Normal Speed can save your life is this one: http://youtu.be/fHr70aXZ3FM
Those combos in turbo speed are very hard (for not saying impossible) to do even with autofire buttons.
Back in the day i used to switch to Normal speed to record Vampire Savior combos, and i didn't care about it, looks awkward, but some combos in the game have really tight timming and execution (Bishamon Dash combos comes to my mind right now) and the only way i had to perform them was in normal speed, if normal speed can make your life easier... i don't see why it's bad using it, but off course, i still preffer Turbo Speed overall to produce combo videos.
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wolverine-master
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Re: Turbo Frameskip vs Normal Speed

Post by wolverine-master »

Working with the vs series, I run into this problem alot.
What do you suggest? Keep in mind that I have never done a combo on normal speed.
How do you make the combo look "up to par" if you're doing it on normal speed?
Another problem I run into is when I get 3/4 way through, something gets fucked up in the beginning.
All of a sudden "c.mp, c.mp" doesnt work. So I gotta go all the way back to fix it, and work my my back to the end.
This happens alot for me.....
Maj
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Re: Turbo Frameskip vs Normal Speed

Post by Maj »

wolverine-master wrote:How do you make the combo look "up to par" if you're doing it on normal speed?
You can't. The video is just gonna look slow and there's nothing you can do about it.

But switching over is pretty easy, especially with tool-assistance. All your wait times will increase but they'll become much more consistent.
error1
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Re: Turbo Frameskip vs Normal Speed

Post by error1 »

actually you could cheat and speed up the video in editing, it's shady but I don't think anyone would be able to tell the difference
Maj
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Re: Turbo Frameskip vs Normal Speed

Post by Maj »

That's extreme dishonesty which would piss off a lot of people, myself included. It's on the same level as using tool-assistance and openly lying that you're doing everything manually. You'd be much better off with a slow combo.
wolverine-master
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Re: Turbo Frameskip vs Normal Speed

Post by wolverine-master »

So, do it on normal...then change the game speed to turbo2 and fix the problems then?
They should make tool assistance for KINECT. That way I can just sit down and yell commands.
Maj
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Re: Turbo Frameskip vs Normal Speed

Post by Maj »

Yup, that's the best way to test stuff if you're determined to record some unproven combo on Turbo speed. But if you have lots of really long and complicated combos in your video, sticking to Normal speed might make you hate life a lot less.
error1
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Re: Turbo Frameskip vs Normal Speed

Post by error1 »

Maj wrote:That's extreme dishonesty which would piss off a lot of people, myself included. It's on the same level as using tool-assistance and openly lying that you're doing everything manually. You'd be much better off with a slow combo.
yeah actually on second thought it would be easy to tell beacuse the sound doesn't speed up on turbo, so you would have to spend a ton of time fixing the sound or it would sound wrong
CPS2
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Re: Turbo Frameskip vs Normal Speed

Post by CPS2 »

Not that i suggest anyone do this for tacvs, but it is handy to know if you ever get into audio editing, a lot of software can increase or decrease the bpm in music or samples and preserve or change the pitch to whatever you want. On a turntable , pitch = speed, but they're different things in software. I'd also consider it shady to speed up emu footage unless you do it really briefly to make a transition where it fits music or whatever, and is obvious.
wolverine-master
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Re: Turbo Frameskip vs Normal Speed

Post by wolverine-master »

I did 2 combos for maj for the weekly thing. And now I have a new type of problem.
Usually when I'm capturing a combo, it skips and slows down....I consider that normal because when I play it back, its gravy.
Now, with these 2 new combos, it got captured the same damn way it was being portrayed during the capture process.
Why is that?
error1
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Re: Turbo Frameskip vs Normal Speed

Post by error1 »

how are you recording?
wolverine-master
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Re: Turbo Frameskip vs Normal Speed

Post by wolverine-master »

with the built in capture avi thingy....thats the same way i always do it.
error1
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Re: Turbo Frameskip vs Normal Speed

Post by error1 »

wolverine-master wrote:with the built in capture avi thingy....thats the same way i always do it.
in fba rr? try encoding it
wolverine-master
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Re: Turbo Frameskip vs Normal Speed

Post by wolverine-master »

how do i encode?
error1
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Re: Turbo Frameskip vs Normal Speed

Post by error1 »

ah so you've never encoded before, not sure how that's possible.
I use megui, it's a avisynth gui, if you contact me on aim or msn I can walk you through how to use it.
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