SF4 Combo Engine Investigation

[Smileymike101]

Yeah today is my last school day that i actually have to prepare for (finally), so i am free after.I'll get something done with it+ my last SF4 material i did in a vid this week probably.

[onReload]

Wait, what?

I just connected Lvl. 3 FA on Seth in the corner after Yoga Catastrophe...then I dashed up and did his Super; it does like 4 dmg less than it would without the FA in there, but it's interesting, and of course, you could probably do anything else...

[Snoooootch]

Mike, I can't wait to see that, bro.

[error1]

it surprised me that maj managed to get a full charge off of lk, rush punch with Balrog
and I noticed that iphone guile can do sonic boom, c.lp, sonic boom ( and sonic boom, ex sonic boom but that's a different story )
so I wanted to see if guile could do it
http://www.gamefront.com/files/20007729/exboomd.mkv
so the charge times for exboom, c.lp, exboom, c.lp, exboom need to be frame perfect
also check out where that last sonic boom hits, that's some sodam hitbox there

[Maj]

Yup, Guile can do it too. Looks pretty cool i guess. Haha i don't know, i can't tell anymore. It's pretty hard to find impressive combos with Guile in SF4. Everything looks the same and does no damage.

[error1]

the wired thing is that there really isn't enough charge time.
for example I don't think
exboom, c.lp, exboom, c.lp, exboom, c.lp, exboom is possible

it takes 900ms to charge a boom
the wait is only 650ms from doing an ex boom to linking a c.lp
the most delay you can have after a c.lp in order to cancel it into a sonicboom is 190ms
that's only 840ms
so in order to do it you have to start charging for the second one long before you do the first one
my input looks like
hold left
c.lp
tap right
wait 140ms
pp
wait 650ms
c.lp
wait 100ms
tap right
wait 60ms
pp
etc..

[Rufus]

Yup, Guile can do it too. Looks pretty cool i guess. Haha i don't know, i can't tell anymore. It's pretty hard to find impressive combos with Guile in SF4. Everything looks the same and does no damage.

That's not exclusive to Guile.

[Maj]

the wired thing is that there really isn't enough charge time.
for example I don't think
exboom, c.lp, exboom, c.lp, exboom, c.lp, exboom is possible

Yeah that's been true going all the way back to SF2. From a charge management perspective, starting a sequence with a Sonic Boom creates a totally different flowchart than starting with c.LP or any other cancelable normal move.

That's not exclusive to Guile.

Haha maybe not, but for some reason SF4 Sonic Booms feel more "So what?" to me than any other game except maybe SvCC. I don't know, maybe it's just me. For what it's worth, Zangief, El Fuerte, Cammy, Viper, and Rufus have been the driest combo characters i've dealt with so far - and Dan will probably join that list. Everyone else was genuinely intriguing, at least somewhat.

By the way what's your take on Rufus? Haha i always feel bad talking shit about that character when you're around.

[Rufus]

Haha maybe not, but for some reason SF4 Sonic Booms feel more "So what?" to me than any other game except maybe SvCC.

The game punishes extra moves in combos quite harshly, and, as a consequence, shuts down the sonic boom combo machine pretty hard. I feel like Dee Jay is pretty similar to Guile in that regard. With the very limited possibilities that characters have for breaking out of the combo mold themselves, I can't help but feel like SSF4 - for combos - is more about the dummies. It seems like a lot of the combo system is draw-by-numbers, and you've really got to understand the system before you can see the cleverness required to break out of the mold.

By the way what's your take on Rufus? Haha i always feel bad talking shit about that character when you're around.

Not a big fan of the design. He really seems like he's supposed to be a parody of Tekken characters like Paul Phoenix.

[Maj]

Okay, just making sure your username isn't a reference to him or anything.

[Rufus]

Okay, just making sure your username isn't a reference to him or anything.

Oh, no... I was using Rufus as a handle years before SF4 came out.
http://shoryuken.com/members/rufus-53303/

[Maj]

Alright cool. In that case i hope Capcom releases a "Cool Rufus" alternate costume just for you - like SNK did for Choi and Chang.

[Maj]

A long while ago, Mike Z had me check a bunch of input-related stuff for him in SF4 - mainly revolving around 360 command throw leniency. Originally i was planning on posting that as an article on Sonic Hurricane, but never got around to it. I might still do it eventually, but i figured i'd at least put all that stuff here in the meantime.

> - obviously R, DR, D, DL, L, UL, U should count.

Yup.


> * Skipping dirs *
> - Does R, D, L, U count?

Yup.


> -- If that's the case, can you skip more dirs with no other inputs in-between?
> --- Does R, DL, L, UL, U count? How about R, DL, U?
> --- Does R, L, UL, U? (etc)

Nope. Nope.
Nope.

DR, DL, UL, UR+HP counts though.


> * Adding dirs *
> - Can you insert additional not-valid dirs between valid dirs?

Yup.

R, DL, D, U+HP doesn't work.
R, DL, D, DL, L, DL, U+HP works.
R, DL, D, DR, L, DL, U+HP works.
R, DL, D, DR, L, DR, U+HP works.

R, DL, D, DR, U+HP does greenhand.
R, DL, D, DR, U+HK doesn't work.

So maybe you need four right-angle directions?

Also apparently R, L, D, U+HP works. "Make a cross, any cross"?


> -- Does R, neutral, D, neutral, L, neutral, U count? If so, how many frames of neutral?

Yup.

R.W7,D.W7,L.W7,U+HP. works.

R.W8,D.W8,L.W8,U+HP. doesn't work.


> -- Does R, L, D, L, U count? etc etc.

Yup.


> * Button timing *
> For how long after you do the last valid direction and return to neutral (or whereever) does the game still accept buttons as the end of a 360?

MK.W15,R.D.L.U.W20,HP. works, so 20 neutral frames.

MK.W15,R.D.L.U.W21,HP. doesn't work.


> * Unrelated *
> How long can you stretch out a special move input? D,DF,F, how long can you hold each dir? Is it max total time for the motion, or max time per direction?

In most Capcom games it's max per direction, but in SF4 it's total time.

MK.W10,R.W5,D.W5,L.W5,U.W5,HP. works.
MK.W10,R.W6,D.W5,L.W5,U.W5,HP. doesn't work.
MK.W10,R.W5,D.W5,L.W5,U.W6,HP. doesn't work.

MK.W15,R.D.L.W2,U.W18,HP. works.
MK.W15,R.D.L.W2,U.W19,HP. doesn't work.

Not surprisingly, the windows vary between different commands.

R.D.DR.W10,HP. works (greenhand).
R.D.DR.W11,HP. doesn't work.

R.W8,D.DR.W10,HP. works.
R.W8,D.W7,DR.W10,HP. works.
R.W8,D.W8,DR.W10,HP. doesn't work.
R.W8,D.W8,DR.W7,HP. doesn't work.
R.W7,D.W8,DR.W10,HP. works.

So it's a little complicated sometimes. Keep in mind that all of these numbers could be off by 1 frame. My program pads are pretty accurate, but not perfect. It's precise enough to where probably nine out of ten commands in a sequence will be exact, but one out of ten will randomly fluctuate by 1 frame.

At first i thought it was a converter issue, but i'm starting to think that they're simply calibrated to a slightly different input rate than whatever SF4's running. After all i'm using PS1 controllers with a PS3.

[error1]

you can check this stuff in ono!
so for example green hand has
8 frames forward buffer lenient
8 frames down buffer lenient
12 frames forward buffer lenient

you can probably do

R.W6,D.W6,DR.W10,HP.


spd has 24 frames for the whole thing

super combo has 32 frames for the whole thing

u2 is
F Strict 12 frames
D lenient 12 frames
B lenient 12 frames
F Strict 12 frames
D lenient 12 frames
B lenient 12 frames

so you should be able to do u2 by doing
F.DB..DB.F.DB..DB.

[error1]

whoops I was wrong about u2, they have an u2 input in the file, but it's unused, u2 uses the same input as super

[onReload]

Hahaha yeah I guess they were gonna make it a HCBx2 Ultra at first. Really glad they didn't...

...also, has the Ono! creator mentioned whether or not this will support AE2012? I know they're changing some attack properties, and the translated changelog had some awkward phrasing; almost made me think we'll see some weird ones (something about zangief's s.HP doing knockdown damage...or something)...

and simplifying inputs even more...where do you go, from 720 -> HCBx2 -> ...? will the grab ultras (except T.Hawk/Zangief) now be QCBx2?

[error1]

by making it easier they will probably get rid of the diagonals or make the inputs more lenient, that kind of thing makes a big difference of the keyboard
for example akuma's red fireball is really easy beacuse you can press any down direction but Adons is super hard beacuse you need a pure down input
interesting bit of pointlessness, it takes 3361 frames to charge a lv10 tap with kicks, it only takes 3360 frames to charge it with punches

I don't think Dantarion is working on ono! at all right now

[anotak]

ono should support 2012 out of the box as i doubt they are changing the data file format. if they are, dantarion is pretty busy with other stuff right now. i have access to the source code as i made one or two bugfixes myself that are in the current version even though i didnt make most of the program... but that means i could update it if he is unable.