Finally Done: Juggle mechanics guide

[Maj]

Hey, i just saw this video pop up on u2b ... and i have to say, i'm a little confused. I saw that you already posted it on SRK, so i'm guessing you decided not to have it as a guest article on SH?

Is it still okay for me to post the video on ComboVid?

Um, yeah, i don't really know what to make of it when people release videos without giving me any hint at all. I mean i don't want to blindly assume that everyone wants their videos posted on ComboVid, so this kind of puts me in an awkward position.

[Pokey86]

Hey, i just saw this video pop up on u2b ... and i have to say, i'm a little confused. I saw that you already posted it on SRK, so i'm guessing you decided not to have it as a guest article on SH?

Is it still okay for me to post the video on ComboVid?

Um, yeah, i don't really know what to make of it when people release videos without giving me any hint at all. I mean i don't want to blindly assume that everyone wants their videos posted on ComboVid, so this kind of puts me in an awkward position.

Damn, i forgot about combovid... I'll close it on youtube, if that's ok. & re-upload there.

[Maj]

No i mean is it okay to post it on the website? Not to upload it to the ComboVid channel. It's fine the way it is and i'll post it today if you want. I'm just confused about what you want me to do and i don't want to make the assumption that everyone wants their videos posted on ComboVid.

[Pokey86]

No i mean is it okay to post it on the website? Not to upload it to the ComboVid channel. It's fine the way it is and i'll post it today if you want. I'm just confused about what you want me to do and i don't want to make the assumption that everyone wants their videos posted on ComboVid.

Then yeah go ahead, i'm happy with that. Cheers

[Doopliss]

Seems like the 2nd hit of EX yoga blast has JP2. You can do EX Yoga Flame -> EX Yoa blast after ultra or lvl.3 FA, and you can do "EX Yoga blast trade EX yoga blast". Well, at least in vanilla.

[Pokey86]

Seems like the 2nd hit of EX yoga blast has JP2. You can do EX Yoga Flame -> EX Yoa blast after ultra or lvl.3 FA, and you can do "EX Yoga blast trade EX yoga blast". Well, at least in vanilla.

I'll look in to it.

[Pokey86]

Seems like the 2nd hit of EX yoga blast has JP2. You can do EX Yoga Flame -> EX Yoa blast after ultra or lvl.3 FA, and you can do "EX Yoga blast trade EX yoga blast". Well, at least in vanilla.

No it's not JP2... the second hit of EX Yoga flame is JP1+ (Maintain juggle potential) It took a long time but i did Yoga flame trade, EX Yoga fire...But you can't do, Air hit EX Yoga Fire (not counterhit) Yoga Blast/Flame

I couldn't test if EX Yoga blast has the same JP, i'll test later.

Sim has some wierd mechanics.

[Doopliss]

Well, I did EX Yoga blast trade, EX Yoga Blast for 3 hits. And I also tested some other stuff, and EX Flame probably have JP1+ like you said, so that must mean EX Yoga Blast has as well.

Also, this is my theory about his U1 on air hit:

1: Float
2: Float
3: JC1
4: JC2
5: JC3

It's hard to say what happens when you juggle with it though. This also happens if you remove one or two hits, after a 3-hit AA U1 you can do Yoga Mummy, but not a normal, but you can do a normal after two hits of that 3-hit U1.

If you Juggle with U1 after an AA lvl.3 FA, Yoga mummy can connect after two hits, however, you can't connect a normal after even one hit, so I guess it becomes:

1: JC1
2: JC1
3: JC2
4: JC3
5: JC4

or something like that.

[Pokey86]

Wow... I s'pose we were going to have to delve in to this can of worms at one point... i had nightmares trying to figure this out but it doesn't make much sense. On the guide i made it Float for all air hits, purely because it follows how it works relatively close without making alot of guesses.

OK, i had a good fuck about today & figured it out. COMPLETELY

Yoga Catastrophe:

1st: JPX - Stun - Float
2nd: JPX+ - Stun - Float
3rd: JPX - Stun - Float
4th: JPX+ - Stun - Float
5th: JPX - Float – Float

Now this is exact, it's the second & fourth hit that maintain juggle potential. if you do a raw ultra on a jumping opponent you can hit a Yoga mummy on anything up to the 4th hit. they end the juggle on JP2 (which narrows Sim down to Super/Ultra) if you do a AA lvl 3 Focus -> Ultra you can hit a Yoga mummy on the second hit, third makes it whiff.

phew

[Doopliss]

Didn't know you could Yoga Mummy after the 4th hit, nice.

[Pokey86]

Didn't know you could Yoga Mummy after the 4th hit, nice.

Well i didn't until now... but i know in a real game if i ever got an AA Ultra, i always went for a Yoga mummy.

[Doopliss]

Shouldn't you add data for Guy's bushin chains?

[Pokey86]

Shouldn't you add data for Guy's bushin chains?

Good point... I'll add it on the big update for AE

[Doopliss]

Also, Looks like you're wrong about Blanka's AG U2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MOn7IVbHog

[Smileymike101]

I have a question.How the F*** did you test that the last hit of rolling thunder has JP 1?I mean, that sounds impossible to test.

[Doopliss]

6th hit connects AA, then 7th hit connects. Then I guess you can hit him out of recovery with a projectile (if needed, dunno) and try how many hits of LP MGB you can connect, or if HP Jet Upper connects.

[Pokey86]

Also, Looks like you're wrong about Blanka's AG U2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MOn7IVbHog

yeah i was

[Smileymike101]

I dont think the last hit or Rolling thunder has any juggle.If you win a round with the second last punch, the last uppercut will wiff completely through the opponent, which indicates it has no juggle.

[Doopliss]

It's possible that the 6th hit causes float on air hit or something.

[Pokey86]

Generally speaking it doesn't matter, there'll never be a situation where it'll be put in to practice. I gave it juggle potential as it hits in a simlair fashion to his Dash Upper.

I'll take the move more seriously in the update. I don't want my lack of activity over one move tarnishing the effort i put overall.

[Doopliss]

Lol, apparently C.Vipers far s.HK has a JP of 1, I had no idea. Works after AA HP TK and air flame kick with the proper spacing. I can also tell you that it isn't JP 2 or more, because I tested that by doing 2 HP TKs on Dhalsim doing j.LP. Btw, shouldn't it already be on here because it causes knockdown on air hit?

[Pokey86]

Lol, apparently C.Vipers far s.HK has a JP of 1, I had no idea. Works after AA HP TK and air flame kick with the proper spacing. I can also tell you that it isn't JP 2 or more, because I tested that by doing 2 HP TKs on Dhalsim doing j.LP. Btw, shouldn't it already be on here because it causes knockdown on air hit?

Wow... I'm genuinely surprised. (Not have as good as you discovering that EX Yoga flame causes float on first hit when it CH's though)

[Maj]

Hey so why does Balrog's super only juggle after the kick version of his ultra?

And btw, it seems that the properties of the fifth part of both his super and ultra are decided by the fourth part. In other words, you can't do the punch version of the fourth swing of his super/ultra and then get the fifth swing to juggle. It will automatically come out as the non-juggling punch version.

This also means that you can press kick to perform the kick version of the fourth hit, then release the button and he'll automatically do the kick version finisher. It looks identical but the kick version juggles whereas the punch version does not. Same goes for ultra.

[Pokey86]

Hey so why does Balrog's super only juggle after the kick version of his ultra?

And btw, it seems that the properties of the fifth part of both his super and ultra are decided by the fourth part. In other words, you can't do the punch version of the fourth swing of his super/ultra and then get the fifth swing to juggle. It will automatically come out as the non-juggling punch version.

This also means that you can press kick to perform the kick version of the fourth hit, then release the button and he'll automatically do the kick version finisher. It looks identical but the kick version juggles whereas the punch version does not. Same goes for ultra.

I noticed this a while ago,Knew it ages for the Super though,only recently for the Ultra though. I planned on updating it with a little note... When AE comesout

Same for Guys target combos (the throw one causes float)

[Maj]

Sorry for taking so long to test the Honda stuff. It totally slipped my mind.

Honda HP hands vs Dhalsim vertical j.LP, EX Sumo Smash, EX Headbutt xx super | works for 5 hits total, for all three versions of super.
Honda HP hands vs Dhalsim vertical j.LP, EX Sumo Smash, LP super | works for 4 hits total.
Honda HP hands vs Dhalsim vertical j.LP, EX Sumo Smash, MP super (whiff) | doesn't work, probably because it's too slow.
Honda HP hands vs Dhalsim vertical j.LP, EX Sumo Smash, ultra (whiff) | doesn't work, probably because it's too slow.
Honda lvl1 Focus Attack vs Dhalsim vertical j.LP, EX Sumo Smash, ultra | works for 10 hits total.

In case it's not clear, all of these start with trades and of course the lvl1 Focus Attack doesn't create a free juggle state. It simply causes much longer impact freeze than Hundred Hand Slap, so Dhalsim is significantly higher when Honda performs super/ultra.

[Pokey86]

Sorry for taking so long to test the Honda stuff. It totally slipped my mind.

Honda HP hands vs Dhalsim vertical j.LP, EX Sumo Smash, EX Headbutt xx super | works for 5 hits total, for all three versions of super.
Honda HP hands vs Dhalsim vertical j.LP, EX Sumo Smash, LP super | works for 4 hits total.
Honda HP hands vs Dhalsim vertical j.LP, EX Sumo Smash, MP super (whiff) | doesn't work, probably because it's too slow.
Honda HP hands vs Dhalsim vertical j.LP, EX Sumo Smash, ultra (whiff) | doesn't work, probably because it's too slow.
Honda lvl1 Focus Attack vs Dhalsim vertical j.LP, EX Sumo Smash, ultra | works for 10 hits total.

In case it's not clear, all of these start with trades and of course the lvl1 Focus Attack doesn't create a free juggle state. It simply causes much longer impact freeze than Hundred Hand Slap, so Dhalsim is significantly higher when Honda performs super/ultra.

Thanks for this info. it reflects the stats i have on Honda. His Super may not be JPX but it doesn't matter unless someone can find a way of making the enemy higher than JP2. I'll edit the Ultra info though, as you've made it hit on JP 2

[Maj]

No problem. Hey can you explain the numbers for Balrog's ultra? How did you find this info?

Ultra - violent Buffalo: Punch Version

1st hit: JP1 - Stun - SKD
2nd - 8th: JP0 - Stun- SKD
9th: JP5 - SKD - SKD
10th: JP6+ - SKD - SKD
11th: JP5 - SKD - SKD

Ultra - violent Buffalo: Kick Version

1st: JP1+ - Stun - SKD
2nd: JP1 - Stun - SKD
3rd: JP2+ - Stun - SKD
4th: JP2 - Stun - SKD
5th: JP3+ - Stun - SKD
6th: JP3 - Stun - SKD
7th: JP4+ - Stun - SKD
8th: JP4 - Stun - SKD
9th: JP5 - SKD - SKD
10th: JP6+ - SKD - SKD
11th: JP5 - SKD - SKD

You have identical data for the last swing of both the punch and kick versions, but i think the punch version might be different, since his super doesn't juggle afterwards. Also i've never seen his ultra juggle more than 7 times.

If you get those 1+, 2+, 3+, etc. hits to connect without the second hit of each swing, does that mean you can theoretically get it to juggle nine times?

Headbutt (SKD), ultra (1+, 2+, 3+, 3, 4+, 4, 5, 6+, 5) should give you 10 hits, right? I've never seen the ultra juggle eight times.

[Pokey86]

Ultra - violent Buffalo: Punch Version

1st hit: JP1 - Stun - SKD
2nd - 8th: JP0 - Stun- SKD
9th: JP5 - SKD - SKD
10th: JP6+ - SKD - SKD
11th: JP5 - SKD - SKD

I cab state this was a guess, i only recently found out that his Ultra had to have the 4th hit as KKK to make a KKK verson 5th hit. to me it just looked the same.

Ultra - violent Buffalo: Kick Version

1st: JP1+ - Stun - SKD
2nd: JP1 - Stun - SKD
3rd: JP2+ - Stun - SKD
4th: JP2 - Stun - SKD
5th: JP3+ - Stun - SKD
6th: JP3 - Stun - SKD
7th: JP4+ - Stun - SKD
8th: JP4 - Stun - SKD
9th: JP5 - SKD - SKD
10th: JP6+ - SKD - SKD
11th: JP5 - SKD - SKD

I can't remember what i did, but i remember specifically that i spent ages on this move & The above is the closest i could come to an accurate depiction of the move.

something i mentioned in a previous post was a reply to Doopliss' statement:

Balrog: 2nd hit of super can connect after grounded ultra, and the 3rd and 4th hit will also connect afterwards. Take it as you will.

Yeah i know it can... the JP of the Ultra supports this, out of the final 3 hits, all of which cause a knockdown (tested on rose & her satellites) the only viable way i could figure this was. (On a grounded opponent)

First hit causes standard knockdown
Second hit maintains standard knockdown
Third hit increases counter to JP2 (SKD + 1)

But yeah, basically his Ultra is basically an educate guess on how it works... It's the best i could come up with & accurate enough for people to take it without questioning it much. The part i am most sure about though is the final Upper. As i had a decent way to test it.

[Maj]

Well, i'm satisfied with your educated guess. It's probably not too important to figure out the exact numbers for every hit of Rog's ultra, since nothing else connects after an ultra juggle anyway. Ironing out the differences between the punch/kick enders is the most important thing.

In SF4, it looks like after the PPPPP version, if you do the KKK version, the first uppercut doesn't connect, then the second uppercut connects for one hit and the third uppercut connects for one hit as well. You end up with 16 hits total from both ultras.

After the KKKKK version, if you do the KKK version, the first uppercut connects for one hit, then the second uppercut connects for one hit. Or you can get the first uppercut to whiff and connect the second one for two hits. You can end up with 17 hits total with the KKPKK pattern or the KKKKK pattern if the first one whiffs.

The PPP version whiffs after both, which isn't surprising since the first hit of super whiffs after both versions too.

[Maj]

Also i have a suspicion than it makes a difference whether you start the ultra with PPP or KKK. I think if you press KKK to start the ultra, then don't hold any buttons so that he does the straight punch, it juggles one frame earlier than if you start with PPP.

Against Rose in SF4, lvl2 Focus Attack xx dash forward, lvl1 Focus Attack xx dash backward, ultra connects if you initiate the ultra with KKK buttons, but not if you use PPP. The frame data doesn't differentiate them, so either the frame data is wrong or the KKK version enters its juggle phase earlier.