Got any Questions about CvS, CvSPro, CvS2, or CFE?

[Maj]

Wth, that's what it stands for? I've never seen that written on a box or in any official materials. The only reference to "Extreme Offense" i can find is some random guide on GameFAQs. I always thought it was Easy Operation. Isn't that what the game's EO-Ism mode stands for?

I don't understand the question about combovids though. A-Groove only allows you to do lvl1 supers and P-Groove only allows you to do lvl3 supers, so by that alone they can't be the same. Their juggle mechanisms also work completely differently. Special-to-super cancels create a free juggle state whereas supers initiated in A-Groove Custom Combos inherit infinite juggle potential.

[error1]

A little research and it looks like it means "Easy Operation" in the Japanese version and "Extreme Offence" in the American version so that's where the confusion is.

[onReload]

Their juggle mechanisms also work completely differently. Special-to-super cancels create a free juggle state whereas supers initiated in A-Groove Custom Combos inherit infinite juggle potential.

Ah, ok. I have to go figure out the difference between those two; i know that in A-Groove, basically infinite JP means the super will always connect, but "free juggle state"?

But yeah I also meant, he has some stuff outside of P-Groove...EX Groove is in the other ports, and so are the other grooves, so is the rest of the video possible in CvS2?

edit: I remember what site I found that Extreme Offense bit on (and Googling "cvs2 eo extreme offense" nets many results); it was on the Street Fighter Legacy flash, on streetfighter.com's USA section:

GameCube: CAPCOM VS SNK 2 EO

The EO abbreviation in the title confused some gamers. Some thought it stood for "Easy Operation" when it actually means "Extreme Offense."

tvtropes and some other pages (neoseeker.com ?) have said that it depends on the version. still, haven't seen a real source for the easy operation. other than guile.

[Maj]

When you cancel specials into super, it resets the juggle counter and creates a single free juggle state for the first hit of the super to connect. At that point it's like the super is connecting against a jumping opponent. If it's supposed to juggle all the way through, it juggles. There's one or two exceptions but that's the gist of it.

Every combo in the first video is exclusive to CvS2EO because they're all P-Groove special-to-super cancels. The only way you could do this stuff in the original CvS2 would be to enable special-to-super canceling in EX-Groove.

The only exceptions are the random P-Zangief FAB clip at the beginning, the random P-Ryo clip at 0:31, the P-Sagat combo at 1:47, the P-Ryu combo at 2:26, the P-Chun combo at 3:29, the P-Geese combo at 3:55, the P-Ken combos at 4:01 and 4:06, the P-Vega combo at 4:10, and every non-P-Groove combo in the video. All the other P-Groove combos used special-to-super canceling so they're CvS2EO-only. I have no idea why he used P-Groove for combos that didn't use special-to-super canceling but i would specificially avoid that to avoid confusion.

The second video is mostly regular combos. The CvS2EO-only stuff: P-Kim at 0:21, P-Ken at 1:24, P-G.Rugal at 2:01, and P-S.Akuma at 2:11.

[error1]

tvtropes and some other pages (neoseeker.com ?) have said that it depends on the version. still, haven't seen a real source for the easy operation. other than guile.

that's because it would be on Japanese sites, as it's the name for the Japanese version
http://www.capcom.co.jp/capvssnk2eo/

[onReload]

Good catch. Was trying to figure out where it was on capcom.co.jp. So there we have it. I guess we Americans like EXTREME OFFENSE.

[Ultima]

A bit late, but I thought I'd respond to some things:

Maj:

> EX King's DP did slightly more damage but it was slower and hit higher so i don't think you could connect it off a throw.

I used to play EX-King, and she could definitely connect DP off a throw, though I think it was corner only.

Xenozip: re: Nakoruru

Nakoruru's been stupid tier before CvS1. In fact, she's good in 3 out of the first 4 SS games (bottom tier in SS2, upper in SS1, and Slash Nako is stupid in SS3/4). It's really just SS0 onwards that don't like her (instead they gave their love to Bust Nako/Rera). Not sure about NGBC or the 3D SS games.

Speaking of SS, not to hijack this thread, but I got this book a month back, and I was astonished that it was an SNK book (and a Samurai Shodown book) with honest-to-god frame data! Okay, incomplete frame data (start/active/rec only, no HS/BS, and only for special attacks and supers for some reason, not normal attacks), and of course it's for SS3, the worst 2D SS game, but it's still more than anything else I've come across. I thought SNK books with frame data didn't exist actually. Even without HA/BA, you can tell some of the moves have really stupid data.

re: CvS2 Beta

While I do believe the beta had special-super cancelling for P-Groove, the only person I've heard claim that there were EX moves in the beta is Viscant. To this day I find that difficult to believe, for the basic reason that I can't see Capcom making up a bunch of moves and then throwing them away. If EX moves were created, we have at least have seen them in the console version as a EX Groove option or something, just like they created running animation for all characters in CvS1 but you could only enable it in the console versions.

[Maj]

I used to play EX-King, and she could definitely connect DP off a throw, though I think it was corner only.

Hm, it's been a while, but i'm pretty sure there was something King could DP after that EX King couldn't. Maybe it was sweep or slide or something? Anyway they were both good, but EX King didn't have double fireball.

More importantly, King had flipkick super which made her one of the few R1's with a legit reversal, whereas EX King had fireball super which was great for juggle combos but otherwise not too useful. I think that's mainly what the choice came down to, although it's mostly personal preference. I always liked regular King better but they were both solid - although i hella can't remember specific matchups anymore, except some with Guile, some with Ryu, and for some reason some with Gief.

[Xenozip.]

Regarding CvS1 stuff, I remember this set http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR4krLaMf3g

Arturo running King and Nakoruru.

[phoenix]

Okay, incomplete frame data (start/active/rec only, no HS/BS, and only for special attacks and supers for some reason, not normal attacks), and of course it's for SS3, the worst 2D SS game, but it's still more than anything else I've come across. I thought SNK books with frame data didn't exist actually. Even without HA/BA, you can tell some of the moves have really stupid data.

Doesn't SS3 have universal hitstun like KOF though? then you don't need anything but start/active/rec.

[onReload]

Regarding CvS1 stuff, I remember this set http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR4krLaMf3g

Arturo running King and Nakoruru.

Jesus, I see the Nakoruru problem now...Also, why would anyone choose Capcom Groove? What are the benefits?

[Maj]

Capcom-Groove is the defacto superior choice. You build meter gradually, but then it's yours forever and it's there when you need it. SNK-Groove is less reliable so you need to get a little lucky for things to go your way. On a bad day, you can lose an entire round without having access to any meter and then you pass on nothing to your next character.

But SNK-Groove is more gimmicky, so eventually people started using it to be rebels or mix things up or whatever. There's only a handful of characters who are better suited for SNK-Groove than Capcom-Groove, and Nakoruru isn't one of them.

[Don Vecta]

Arturo's Vice was quite good as well. Certainly she was lot stronger in CVS1 than in 2.

[onReload]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-gnty6saew

Sorry for the PS1, but what's with the grade system on the bottom? Only certain hits get certain grades or...?

[Maj]

Um, it's kind of a dumb system. You get graded on every single move you do, based on some arbitrary scale that was never published (and nobody cared enough to decipher). Generally normal moves are in the C range, special moves are in the B range, any kind of counter is in the A range, and counters involving supers are in the S range. That means either using a special move to beat a super or using a super to beat a special/super.

Basically if you want to get a high score, try to finish a round with an S grade hit. That gives you the fancy "Finest KO" or whatever it's called, along with an instant 30-point bonus. But the dumb thing is, CvS1 hates combos. You can see this at 4:30 where Akuma's super fireball hits Mai's flametwirl. The first hit gets an S grade then the second hit gets a B grade, and since the second hit kills her, you get nothing.

CvS2 went on to fix this so you get Finest KO as long as the combo starts with a counterhit and ends with a super. Although it's actually quite a bit more complicated than that. It actually matters what you're countering with what. Any counterhit will give you Finest KO if you end with a lvl3 super, but if you end with a lvl1 super, then your counterhit needs to be against a super move or something. Again, nobody cared enough to figure it all out.

[Don Vecta]

I always got confused how it works the scaling. I tried to end up most of my matches with a Finest K.O. and i was expecting to get them with s lv 3 SDM... but yeah,most of the characters I use have grab DM's (Claw, Vice, Zangief) and yeah, sometimes when I land the SDM I either get the flashy Finest K.O. and a shitload of points or, to my dismay, no flashy FKO and even get my points deducted... so WTF!?

Even noticed that sometimes during the match, just for the fuck of it, the score starts to drop... weird system indeed.

[Maj]

Yeah i think grabs are special. Even though they register on the combo counter, they don't actually count as true hits. So if you connect a grab super as a counter, there's no grade separation between hits. You get Finest KO whenever it kills them.

On the other hand, you can land a non-grab counterhit lvl3 super and if it doesn't kill on the first hit, then no Finest KO for you. It's kinda dumb, but then again it's kind of amazing that CvS1 even keeps track of "counterhit" grabs strictly for grading purposes.

As for losing points, that happens if you let too much time pass without attacking. Blocking and getting hit are penalized too.

[Don Vecta]

Yeah i think grabs are special. Even though they register on the combo counter, they don't actually count as true hits. So if you connect a grab super as a counter, there's no grade separation between hits. You get Finest KO whenever it kills them.

I'm seeing something interesting in the video you quoted.

In the time you pointed how the Finest K.O. lands, Zangief seems to land a FAB DM and kill Ryo in the second slam of the DM. However, bit further in the mirror match, he ALSO landed a FAB DM under the apparent same conditions (killing the mirror in the second slam of the FAB) but this time, there's no FKO. What's the condition why it didn't since apparently both DM's were landing in a same situation?

[Maj]

The grab against Ryu was "counterhit" so it gets an S grade. The grab against Gief was not, so it gets a B grade. There was no counterhit message because throw can't be counterhits, but it matters for scoring.

[Doopliss]

Uhm, how do you fight Ingrid in CFE? I didn't lose a round, I got like 2 perfects and 2-3 super finishes, and I still didn't get to face her. Was it because I played on the easiest setting, or because I had Pyron in my team (even though I only used Zangief)? I want to unlock Shin Akuma so I can play around with him, and apparently I have to fight Ingrid before I can meet him. PS2 version btw.

[Maj]

I don't know how this info was obtained or how precise it is, but the BradyGames guide says:

Fight Ingrid as a Sub Boss

To fight against the Sub Boss Ingrid, you must achieve the following conditions before the 3rd fight in Arcade mode.

Before the 3rd fight:

1)You must have no continues.
2)You must finish matches with a Super Combo or Custom Combo Finishes more than two times before 3rd fight.

Says nothing about difficulty level or anything of the sort. But the Shin Akuma section doesn't say anything about Ingrid either.

Fight Shin Akuma as the End Boss

To fight against Shin Akuma, you must achieve the following conditions before the 3rd fight in Arcade mode.

Before the 3rd fight:

1)You must not lose any rounds.
2)You must get three Perfect wins before the 3rd fight.
3)You must never take the “First Attack" more than five times before the 3rd fight.

Good luck. I don't remember any of this btw, so if it doesn't work i'm out of ideas.

[Doopliss]

The problem probably was that I didn't get a perfect or super finish until after the 3rd fight, thanks.

But the requirements seem to differ A LOT depending on where you look, so I dunno.

[Maj]

All i remember is that it took me a few tries to get it to work. If you need Perfects, you can try using the Red Earth characters since they regenerate life when they use meter to level up. It's not much but it's enough to recover block damage and such. Except i don't even remember if that counts.

Also i wrote the most random special thanks ever in this guide. It's funny seeing it now, but part of it says:

Thanks to eKiN and LB for helping me with my website sonichurricane.com whenever coding scrubbiness got in the way of what i wanted to do.

Haha i don't know what the hell that means. Back then Sonic Hurricane was nothing but tables and text. My only guess is that i wanted to thank those two for their contributions to VidOp, except i probably wanted to mention Sonic Hurricane instead of VidOp so i came up with that bootleg sentence.

Too bad neither of those guys is around anymore. I miss wasting time on IRC with them.

[Doopliss]

Atm, I'm just doing what I did in SFIV: Spamming lariat. Works quite well, especially against pyron. I guess I could use Leo too, I like him quite a bit.

[CPS2]

Too bad neither of those guys is around anymore. I miss wasting time on IRC with them.

Eks just made an album... http://www.joeymaker.com/
He still occasionally posts at ozhadou, but i don't think he plays much anymore.

[Maj]

I guess I could use Leo too, I like him quite a bit.

Yeah one of the interesting things about CFE is how the tiers shift in favor of Red Earth characters if you play 3/5 rounds instead of 2/3.

Eks just made an album... http://www.joeymaker.com/
He still occasionally posts at ozhadou, but i don't think he plays much anymore.

Sweet, thanks for the heads-up. I'll check it out.

Actually i think he registered here a long time ago but never posted. Anyway i hope he's doing well.

[Maj]

Not that anyone should care, but i had an idea for a CvS2 C-Cammy combo that didn't pan out. After triggering the Maki Counter Attack glitch, i was going to combo lvl2 Spin Drive Smasher xx LP hooligan -> divekick which should work theoretically since the divekick generates meter on its own. But for some strange reason it doesn't connect.

I figured out that if you initiate a lvl2 cancel before Maki falls over, the free juggle state doesn't carry over to her knockdown state. You have to perform a qualifying cancel after she falls over, which is actually pretty difficult to set up.

I managed to verify it with Raiden's lvl2 Crazy Train (three hits) xx RDP+HP (whiff) xx headbutt. You have to time it right before the next hit of the super connects, to make sure the gutpunch doesn't combo. Then the headbutt followup occurs after she falls over, so it juggles.

None of that explains why Cammy's divekick doesn't juggle though. Waste of time, basically. Nothing useful came of this.

[Maj]

Mai can't direct her wall dive toward the opposite corner in CvSPro? Wtf?? What a waste of a valuable setup.

[onReload]

Hmmm...Trying the "maj jump" setup on Dan or Joe?

[Maj]

Nope, just messing around. That kind of setup is just as useful for testing random game engine stuff as it is for making combos. There's a lot of subtle differences between CvS Amateur and CvS Pro that aren't documented, mostly in terms of juggle potentials and other combo system quirks. The one and only version differences guide on the internet doesn't even list Mai losing the ability to aim that wall dive move.