Got any Questions about CvS, CvSPro, CvS2, or CFE?

[Maj]

If anyone's got any questions about the CvS series (including CFE/J since it's based on the same combo engine), i'd be more than happy to answer them.

[Xenozip.]

Do slam-type throws exist in either CvS2 or CFE the way that they do in SFA3?

[Maj]

Both of Haohmaru's throws look like slam-type throws. The opponent doesn't bounce after either one and can't recover using Safe Fall. This behavior is rare but there are other instances - Kyo's HK throw, Balrog's HK throw, Geese's HK throw, Honda's command throw, etc.

Does that answer the question or was there a specific characteristic you were looking to compare?

[Xenozip.]

Well the characteristic of a slam type throw in SFA3 is that it will bypass damage scaling, inflicting full damage even if the opponent techs, making them ideal custom combo enders. The fact that most of them actually "slam" the opponent into the ground is just coincidence really. There's some hidden flag in the game that causes proration to be ignored for those throws.

A perfect example is how all of Akuma's throws are not slams, including his demon flip. However, both Cammy and Juni's Cross Scissors Pressure (from Hooligan Combination) causes slam, and in Juni's case the move is actually a 2 hitter, the first hit being a non-slam which scales with combo hits and the second being a slam which does not (their air kick throws and ground kick throws are too, not that it matters).

But, I ask because the only way I know of to combo into throws in CvS2 and CFE are using A-groove/SFA chars, but if you were going to do that then you might as well just end with a super anyway right, so I never bothered testing. But I'm still curious because that's just one of the random unanswered questions I had about both games.

[Dark_Chaotix]

At this point it's very difficult to find/create anything that qualifies as a technical innovation in CvS2. If you're just now getting into the game, there's a TON of existing material you need to watch and understand before you can build on it. It's still possible of course, but new CvS2 videos are so rare nowadays that i've basically stopped anticipating them. Whenever i find one it's always a pleasant surprise but i never expect it anymore.

That said, there's a lot of room for stylish combos in CvS2, especially if you get a little creative with A-Groove Custom Combos. I don't know if Dan/Rolento are the best answer cuz those OTG throw combos have been done to death, but you can do a lot of cool juggles that change sides midscreen, juggle combos against Chun Li with a lot of sweeps/slides, kara-cancel tricks to move you forward, and so on.

Ah ok cool. I thought i was onto something. Hahaha.

Can you give me like a challenge maybe that i can do to make combo better or maybe some vids to showcase something more harder. Since im more Kof, ill stick to those characters if possible but id like to have something for Vice...

[Maj]

But, I ask because the only way I know of to combo into throws in CvS2 and CFE are using A-groove/SFA chars, but if you were going to do that then you might as well just end with a super anyway right, so I never bothered testing. But I'm still curious because that's just one of the random unanswered questions I had about both games.

CC is the only way to combo into throws in CvS2, apart from Vice's Gore Fest -> Tranquility combo which she can do in all three CvS games. Dizzying someone and then throwing them adds to the combo counter as well. To my knowledge there's no way to circumvent the CvS series damage scaling formulas. One formula applies to standard combos and the other applies to Custom Combos. During CC, if the combo counter is at 10 or more, every hit does 100 damage. Comboing into super in CvS/CvSPro reduces their damage by a lot, but supers are immune to combo damage scaling in CvS2. On top of these formulas, there are a ton of stacked damage modifiers like character ratios, lifebar colors, certain kinds of meter being full, counterhits, and so on.

One trick you can do is combo into air throw as the CC is about to end, so that the damage is inflicted after meter runs out. That way it scales based on the standard damage formula instead of the CC damage formula. But that's not what you'd call an exploit. The only way it's worth it is if your character can't put together any decent high-count CC and has a terrible super which tends to miss a lot of juggle hits. In other words, A-Guile sucks.

Same basic rules apply to CFE but they added quite a few moves with unique internal mechanics. Alex can combo into throws after his Flash Chop (only HP and EX versions i think). He can even combo into normal throws if you prevent the usual pushback. There's also a couple of supers which end with throws, like Alex's Boomerang Raid, Hauzer's rush super, and Rose's antiair super. None of these break damage scaling either. Also it's not as simple as saying "these are comboable throws." As with Vice's two-part special, the throw is only comboable as a result of a special property of the hit that comes right before it.

As far as escaping, all normal air throws in all four games are instant and untechable. All command throws are untechable as well. The only thing you can tech is normal ground throws. A lot of ground throws and air throws in CvS count as standard knockdowns, which means you can juggle afterwards using any special/super with juggle potential. All of these have been disabled in CvS2, and almost every normal throw makes the opponent invincible with a small handful of exceptions: Chang, Chun Li, Hibiki, Maki, and maybe Yun. You can't even OTG after air throws using CC against Dan/Rolento because the rule is that you can't OTG throw after a normal throw. Only way around this restriction is during that glitchy last frame of wakeup, but the list of characters equipped with both an air throw and a command throw is quite short. CFE follows the same general rules except that Karin can be juggled after any throw using any special/super with juggle potential, and OTG CC throws work only against Anakaris upon his first bounce.

[Maj]

Can you give me like a challenge maybe that i can do to make combo better or maybe some vids to showcase something more harder.

These old Sai-Rec videos aren't necessarily something you should try to imitate (cuz everyone has seen these by now), but they'll give you an idea of what Vice can do: Harvest 2 (15:18) and Sai-Rec CvS2 Combo Video (1:46)

Also Gunter made a video summarizing most of the standard A-Groove CC throw combos: OTG Combos on Dan v.2.1

Finally, there's this super old MrWhitefolks video which didn't have any technical breakthroughs but it was kind of along the same lines as what i said about stylish combos: MrWhitefolks' Guide to Stupid Combos

If you're gonna use Custom Combos (and you kinda have to with Vice since she has no comboable supers otherwise), then i think it's way better to find things that look wacky, surprising, and unusual rather than trying to go for damage. Don't worry so much about getting a lot of hits, as long as you can avoid extreme repetition which most CC combos fall victim to.

[Maj]

In case anyone wakes up one day missing CvS2 Training Mode, here are a few things that still need testing.

Nobody's quite ironed out the specific effects of stage scrolling on juggle combos. Apparently there are certain stages that bas hates when the situation calls for a midscreen Bison CC, but i don't even recall which stages he listed. Also i remember trying to juggle with Rock's running overhead punch after his interrupted/canceled 360 grab midscreen, way back when we were recording clips for the 2HitCombo video. It only seemed to work when i was close to the side of the screen. I guess forcing the screen to scroll sideways reduced the horizontal distance that the opponent covered as they were falling.

Damage reduction is another area that could use some attention. It would be nice to have all the formulae in one place. For example, there are certain low vitality thresholds that cause characters to inflict more damage, which is why a lot of 100% damage combos start with the performing character nearly dead. I've never seen the exact modifier numbers listed anywhere though. Also it's worth talking about how a 10,000 damage combo against Zangief would yield considerably less numerical damage against Akuma since his lifebar-dependent reduction kicks in much sooner than Zangief's does. And of course there are modifiers based on super meter states in different grooves, counterhit bonuses, and combo counter penalties.

Another weird thing that i noticed once but never got around to looking into - there seems to be some kind of super meter building penalty during lengthy dizzy combos. I remember testing the number of whiffed moves necessary to rebuild meter with C-Ken after using two levels to dizzy Kyosuke, but that same exact sequence failed to yield enough meter when used during the combo. Maybe hitting a dizzy opponent produces slightly less meter than usual.

[Dark_Chaotix]

Ok

Who are the worse characters to use in the game and why? And why is S groove so low tier?

If i were to pick S groove and the worse character for that groove, who would they be?

[Maj]

Tiering CvS2 is a little bit tricky for two reasons. First, the game pretty much forces you to pick three characters so you can get away with picking one oddball character who could have a positive impact on likely matchups. Second, being forced to pick one groove further complicates the matchup matrix.

The good news is that as long as you're willing to pick two top tier characters, you can totally make up any lost ground by picking an obscure character as your third. Personally, i'd say the worst characters (in no particular order) are Kyosuke, Dan, Balrog, King, Yuri, Benimaru, and Haohmaru. They simply don't possess anything remotely dominant, plus they have glaring exploitable weaknesses whenever they go up against any top tier character.

S-Groove has some cool capabilities, but it's clearly at the bottom going by process of elimination. A-Groove is the undisputed best groove in CvS2, but luckily C-Groove and K-Groove aren't too far behind. N-Groove is next in line because at least it gives you access to roll cancels, plus some other cool stuff. That leaves P-Groove and S-Groove, neither of which allow you to RC and both of which have a lot of difficulty managing super meter. Most of the real damage in CvS2 comes from comboing into lvl2/lvl3 supers, which simply requires too many moving pieces to arrange in S-Groove.

[Mike Z]

You skipped the irony, Maj - if you pick one of the worst characters in the worst groove, S-Kyosuke, he gets an infinite.

[Xenozip.]

Further proof that infinites do not automatically make a character top tier.

(as if there wasn't enough bountiful proof already)

[Dark_Chaotix]

Lol

So to make it easier for me, what team you think I should use? Pick a team and groove that No one uses or is just too low tier. Im willing to use them for that reason.

Im open for suggestions.........

EDIT: I see S groove. So now for characters....

[Maj]

If you want to pick S-Groove then you'll probably want to go with characters that have good lvl1 supers because that's what all you'll have access to most of the time. But you can't choose characters that absolutely need lvl1 supers to be effective because you'll spend most of your matches without any meter. That means Chun Li probably isn't a great choice because even though she has a great lvl1 super, she's too dependent on having it available at all times.

Terry is probably the best low tier character for S-Groove because he can combo two lvl1 supers when his lifebar is flashing. Athena can keep throwing lvl1 FB supers over and over which is difficult to deal with. Ryu and Ken are both solid enough to play without meter, and Ryu can repeatedly poke with running c.MK xx lvl1 FB super. Rock has a fairly decent offensive throw mixup game without depending on supers, and both his lvl1/lvl3 supers are useful.

Obviously you can't go wrong with Cammy, Blanka, or Sagat, but i think S-Bison is good too. Guile might be a decent choice if you play patiently, just because the threat of lvl3 Sonic Hurricane is so scary. It basically shuts down their entire gameplan, plus if you land it then you can charge up for another one before they get up.

If i was playing S-Groove, i'd probably go with R2-Guile/Terry/Rock, or if i wanted to play a little more seriously, R2-Guile/Terry/Sagat. I think S-Groove is the only groove where it might be a better idea to put your R2 character first or second instead of last, because that way you always get the most access to your strongest character's flashing lifebar. Plus it's a good idea for your last character to be someone who doesn't need lvl1 supers to win, because you should be able to finish off your opponent without needing to lose most of your lifebar.

[Mike Z]

If you're looking for weird, I suggest C-Athena/Rugal, R3/R1 but doesn't matter which is R3. If Rugal is R3, you can kill R1s with just c.Short x2 xx Lv2 wallslam xx Fierce wallslam...and the chip dmg from Athena's Lv2/Lv3 crystal super goes up along with her regular damage, so at R3 or R4 she does around half just for you blocking one...and it's safe.
I went for least effort, back when I played. :^P

[Ultima]

Sorry to dredge up an old thread (not that it was that far down), but I have a question about CvS1: Does it have a range of values for block/hitstun on ground attacks like CvS2/CFJ, or is it fixed like in SF2? And if it is fixed, what are the values? I have the CvS1 JPN guide which has frame data, but no HA/BA, and I wanted to know if it can be calculate using known values like in SF2. Thanks.

The same query would apply for CvS Pro, but I don't have the book for that.

[Maj]

There's next to zero data advanced data available for CvS1/CvSPro. Your best bet would be to take some 60fps footage and count frame by frame. You can tell when impact freeze ends based on when pushback begins. Even if your absolute data is wrong because your visual cue is off by one frame, your relative measurements should be accurate based on the same cue.

As a matter of "feel," i highly doubt that light attacks have the same impact freeze as hard attacks in any of the CvS games.

[onReload]

So hey, I recently picked up CvS1 for the DC, and while it was mainly for collection purposes, what are some reasons to play CvS1 over CvS2? In a lot of game series, there's a better choice or version, and in this case it's 2 (like Third Strike over 2nd Impact, and yes I know there are people who feel differently on both topics), but there's also little things to check out in the older versions.

So, basically, I'm a bit disappointed with the game...also with the fact that I have to play it like 300 times to unlock everything, 'cause it kinda feels like a "CvS2 minus". I plan on snatching Pro if I see it, also for collection, and if that's majorly different, that would be cool too...but yeah aside from frame data tweaks and what's missing (supers, the system, characters, stages/music, etc), what makes CvS1 not CvS2?

[Maj]

Sweep xx ShinSho

You Win! Game Over.

CvS2 Unlocked.

[onReload]

That makes me really sad. Haha I figured you'd have like a MSWord doc full of tiny observations to paste in here

so it's just about ugly hitsparks, then

[Maj]

The only real reason to go back is to mess around with juggle potentials that were different before certain characters got toned down for CvS2. King is the prime example. She can combo two lvl1 upkick supers in a row, she can do stuff after sweep, after meaty slide, she can connect DP or upkick super after her punch throw in the corner, and so on. In fact a lot of characters can juggle supers after normal throws: Blanka, Benimaru, EX Dhalsim, etc.

EX Balrog is kinda fun. He has some oldschool charge tricks, like LP/LK dashpunch into super like he could do in ST. It's pretty easy to execute with whiff LK dashpunch. Much harder to do if it connects.

Some other EX characters are cool too. EX Kyo had a fireball. EX Chun Li had a superghetto SBK super.

You don't have to unlock the Ratio 3 characters, right? Bison's Psycho Crusher super is pretty awesome. You like Gief right? His upgrab super was buff in CvS1. Um ... CvS1 backgrounds were better than CvS2. Yeah, i'm grasping at straws here.

[onReload]

haha ok, that will probably be enough to snack on for a bit. dunno if i'll end up unlocking everything though, i'm sure the robotic announcer will wear thin eventually

[Xenozip.]

Yeah, some people say they liked the aesthetics. But they turned me off something awful, personally. Not visually though, I tend to ignore visual flaws anyway, but I think the announcer and bgm just irks me bad.

EX King actually has a BNB, right? Unlike CvS2 King whose only BNBs are CH only.

Hmm, I don't know anything though. All I ever hear in regards to CvS1 is jab sweep shinsho, and Nakoruru insane 5-way mixup madness, and Blanka being a douche.

[Maj]

Normal King has basic combos too; they just require more dexterity. I think she had c.LK, c.LP xx HCB+K or RDP+K then DP in the corner. EX King had blah xx QCB+K then DP in the corner. But normal King was way more fleshed out. She had double fireball, upkick super (a legit reversal), she had corner throw juggles, just little things that add up to a lot. EX King's DP did slightly more damage but it was slower and hit higher so i don't think you could connect it off a throw.

Blanka was bad but mostly because he had R2 health/damage at R1. I think King was better. Though it doesn't even matter cuz you could just play all of 'em. Five-minute matches whoo!

[onReload]

Didn't I hear that Nakoruru's low fierce was broken? or am I thinking of Athena in 2? speaking of girl fighters, lol @ cammy's english va. it's a weird one, but that's all she ever gets

[Maj]

Nah it's not low fierce. It's a combination of general speed, damage output, jump angles, and generally good buttons, including the best standing jab ever. She's like X-Rolento in a game with no whatever-beats-X-Rolento. 80% of her matchups are automatic wins. There are only a handful of characters who can fight her. The only one i even remember is Guile. I remember Chikyuu said Raiden vs Nak is a 50/50 matchup but i'm pretty sure he meant only if he was playing Raiden.

The sad thing is she kinda improved the game from the standpoint of not having to watch 7-round matches all ending in time out. By "improved" of course i mean "defiled and tarnished forever."

[Xenozip.]

Yeah it's rather sinful what Capcom did. Nakoruru is low/bottom tier in basically every SNK game she is in, which makes up for the fact that she's their moeblob poster girl parallel to Athena, then Capcom came along and made her stupid-tier. The mixups she can do in that game are just not fair.

Also, CvS2 Athena's c.HP isn't "broken" per-se since a lot of characters can deal with it, but it's ridiculously good in specific matchups where certain opponents have zero answer for it. Like, Athena can pretty much totally dominate Cammy simply with that one move alone, unless they parry or rollcancel well. The tricky part about that move is that it ducks so incredibly low to the ground, it will seriously beat any of Claw Vega's jumpins except a while-clawed j.HP, without claw she can anti-air any of his moves for free.

In a way it's like a low-dodge move crossed with Chun-Li's hakkei.

[onReload]

I was pondering something the other day: Would P-Groove be broken if it had special-to-super cancels? That was one thing that bugged me, it only took one aspect of the SF3 games. It would be too hard and too awesome include some of the other mechanics, like EX specials, universal overheads, or taunts that had an effect on the character. Still, I would love to use that groove more if you could do air Tatsu to air Super Fireball with Akuma etc.

[Maj]

I've heard that one of the original location tests of CvS2 had all that stuff - EX moves and everything. But P-Groove was way too powerful so they removed it all. I tend to doubt that rumor because it's hard to imagine putting that much work into creating new moves only to delete them, but then again maybe it was so early that they hadn't implemented EX moves for all the characters yet.

Anyway i do remember playing the E3 beta of CvS2 where every hit of Chun's SBK caused the same guard bar damage as a hard attack, so HK SBK was basically a guaranteed guard crush. Bison's Psycho Crusher did hella guard bar damage too. Also Gief did a mandatory Taunt after every SPD. Of course everyone tried to play Haohmaru because standing fierce was awesome.

But to answer your question, i don't think super cancels would've made P-Groove broken. It was probably just a case of Capcom overcompensating due to early loke test feedback. P-Groove would actually be decent if it wasn't for A-Groove. You figure that it takes people time to develop parry rhythms and all the option selects necessary to make it work, but it took the same amount of time for A-Groove to emerge, and that matchup's an autoloss for P-Groove.

CvS2EO gave special-to-super cancels to P-Groove though. Boom bap. There were definitely more people playing P-Groove in CvS2EO on XBL, but it's pretty hard to beat K-Groove in lag fighter.

[onReload]

Thanks for the info. Those vids had some pretty cool stuff (I loved in pt. 1 where he has Ryo do Zanretsuken xx Ryuuko Ranbu (whiff) then another Zanretsuken from the other side. the thing is, does EO, or special-to-super canceling really make for different combo videos? can't you do those special to super cancels in a-groove, minus the level 3 only ones?

If i see cvs2eo for a decent price for GC i'm probably going to pick it up for fun. I remember doing some hilarious combos with Athena in A-Groove, like activate in corner, Psycho Reflector x N, Shining Crystal Bit -> ...Shoot. I can't really spam HCB+k manually. Don't know if one combo is worth the game, but I do like to collect stuff. Maybe the tech throw reversal bug is easier with EO on. Also, why the hell does it actually stand for "Extreme Offense?", at least according to one of the official game timelines on capcom's site. You'd think Easy Operation would be a no-brainer.