Are you self-conscious about your videos?

[Magnetro]

Well you need sites in relation to this kind (One with a very dedicated fanbase) if you want to take very meticulous replies onboard.

You either become a regular at a site & use experience & history to determine who to take seriously. Or a website gets made that has a more thorough, dedicated fanbase.

This site is good, but it stresses more the point of making videos & mechanical techqnique than actually progressing standards & increasing your own personal ability. That said it's certainly respectable enough, it's just a shame this place doesn't have a larger amount of users. That said it's hard to come by that sort of thing. Though garnering those users is a tough thing to do, there is no quick way of doing it without degrading quality.

---

& who is this joo people seem to talk of him here like he is a messiah of combo videos or something

This site does help you become a better combo video maker, IMO. Maybe not through means by which occur in other communities since a lot of people are using tool assistance here. I'm not 100% sure by what you mean when you say "progressing standards", if you're referring to elevating the bar for a combo/game, then I think that's not true. Before SF4 was a game people played, all the other games had been out for a while so there were established combo video makers that you'd aspire to impress -- or something like that. So when you say progressing standards, typically, everyone here had set the standard or was entirely capable of surpassing it. This is taking into consideration that all the games out prior to SF4 had been out for YEARS. So the bar was already pretty high. The reason this place didn't have many other people is because there weren't a lot of combovideo makers to begin with -- and a lot of us didn't post much. It was hard to have discussion because there weren't a whole lot of different types of people on here.

Regarding Joo: What Maj said is somewhat true. Joo started making MvC2 videos since 2000. Uh, he made that DVD of combos over the span of 5 years. He really used the program pad to its limits. That is, he did everything you can possibly do with it & excel in order to make combos. So his videos are extremely technical. Without going into the details, he's a combo scientist? I guess that's accurate -- he'd test possible variables thousands of times before finding the right one. Lotta 'stories' like that.

Truthfully, I don't think anyone can top that guy. Not because of skill or difficulty in exploration, but because of time. I don't think there is anyone on the forum (including myself) who could put the amount of time he did into their favorite game to find all the interesting ideas and make combos for them. Plus, Marvel really lends itself to crazy amounts of exploration. So if you spend 5 years on another game, you might wind up with more or less stuff, depending on the effort you'd put in as well as the capacity for the game you're playing.

As time goes on, your work will reach a smaller audience. But it's impossible to NOT amass a lot of great combos without putting a bunch of time and effort into them. Emphasis on time. So when your audience is small, you've tried your best and you've amassed everything you wanted (which took him YEARS) -- I can't imagine how someone could still care about what people think anymore.

[Maj]

Dude you can't declare someone the greatest of all time less than a month after they release the best video they've ever made and more or less retire. He claims they're the best MvC2 combos possible and that may be true for some of them, but nobody's had a chance to digest them yet or to try to top them. And who knows what'll happen once MvC2 gets emulated? It'd be foolish to think that they're going to stand up forever.

I'd say he's the best combo author of his generation but to say that he did all this himself is going a bit too far, especially when he's like 3rd generation after TZW and Skill Smith, and same generation with several other greats like Tosaka, Sai-Rec, and kysg. There's a lot of walls he didn't have to break down because they were already leveled for him.

Plus let's not overlook the (massive) programmable controller advantage. You were the only other Marvel kid to have ppads and there wasn't a whole lot of interest in Marvel in Japan so joo didn't have much competition in that area. Look at all the people who went through the "Marvel is the new hotness" phase without access to ppads: jchensor, Mike Z, Jadon Brown, Clockw0rk, Genghis, ShadyK, eKiN, Amir, Dasrik, MrWhitefolks, etc. etc. These people's contributions aren't minor.

And the 5 year thing is a bit shady too because i spent over a year and a half on my Evo Guile video and it turned out pretty decent. I'm still planning on revisiting it at some point. Let's say i spend another year on it and come up with something better. Then make two more revisions and the 4th revision ends up close to an hour long, having taken 5 years. Can you say that it can't be measured up against joo's MvC2 DVD just because he kept his combos secret for 5 years instead of releasing periodic updates? Because like, for example TZW's last ST video represents close to 10 years of ST combo development. And some of those combos still got topped!

Don't get me wrong, i'm really really glad that joo exists and i wish there was someone like that for more games. But yeah, TZW is still at the top for me. After him, joo might actually rank second but i'd have to think about it because it's helluva not automatic.

(And i don't want to think about it because i hate "pound-for-pound" rankings anyway. Most annoying thing about basketball is fools constantly arguing about Kobe vs Jordan. To me it's a meaningless argument unless you got Jordan at his prime to play an extended set against Kobe in his prime, in addition to somehow arranging that matchup in an evenly balanced team game, like Kobe + 4 robots vs Jordan + 4 identical robots. But that's hella not possible so comparisons are moot. Because even if you got Sai-Rec to make an MvC2 video for reference, you probably couldn't get them to care as much about it, just like you probably couldn't get joo's crew to care enough about a CvS2 video.)

[Pokey86]

What i meant Magnetro is that there are two pitfalls to this site that hinder development in certain aspects. Using the term progressing standards was a poor choice of words i'll confess. Anyway, two the point, the two aspects of this site that hinder are:

1: Because this site incorperates multiple stylesof combo video it detracts on physical improvement. Don't get me wrong i'm not saying TA combos are somehow lesser, there's no higher ground, people don't/shouldn't watch TA videos to witness combo prowess,more creativity & knowledge of the games inner workings. But whilst witnessing such feats is alluring,i am also thoroughly inpressed when i see a combo video displaying physical capability.

2: The sites lack of activity, sadly there is no synthetic colution to this problem, if the fanbase of this kind of thing is small it innevitably leads to a small community.

---

That said this site is still a prime example of a Site that overall would improve actual combo video production, there is certainly enough combined experience to cover most facets of combo video production, & enough side experiece to garner help for other projects like walkthroughs, guides & tutorials. One thing this community certainly isn't short of is dedication. My hat goes off to Maj, browsing through his website there is so much content it must have taken literally years to amass such a vast knowledge of... Well, the shit he knows.

[Maj]

I understand where you're coming from, but you have to remember that combo videos aren't separate from the fighting game community at large, which is still inherently competitive. If you make a tool-assisted DMC combo video, someone might say "that's whack because you couldn't do it in a real game." Then if you perform it manually, that complaint disappears so you don't have to worry about proving yourself any further.

It's completely different with fighting game combo videos because even if you make a manually executed combo vid then someone might still say "that's whack because you couldn't do it against me." I'm a huge fan of manually executed videos because there's a whole puzzle aspect to figuring how to physically execute things too. You have to be clever to iron out timings and hand positions and link rhythms and establishing precise positioning and all that stuff. If you can perform a combo manually, i think that still counts as a step above using tool-assistance (which is why i try to avoid using tool-assistance for combos i can perform manually).

But the nature of the scene itself is ultimately what brings tool-assisted and manually executed combo videos together, because even manually executed combo vids are considered a whole bunch of steps below combos performed in a live tournament setting. I mean it's not like anybody would've cared if Daigo parried Chun's super in Training Mode, right?

As for getting more people to join this forum, i think the general concensus here is that it's better that sh/f is relatively private, but i am always looking for qualified new people to invite. It'll grow eventually, but yeah, it's a slow process.

[Pokey86]

Well tbh i wouldn't want any sluice gates raised for this forum, it has happened in other places in the past & imo, very little good comes of it, a hardcore fanbase dilutes in to something mediocre, i have nothing against that, but i prefer the more devoted sites to stay more devoted. Curiously enough IGN DMC board was always rather hardcore, despite no restrictions, however this was due to the atmosphere of the board folling around was shunned pretty hard & all the people not prepared to take the game seriously (hell that's a lol in itself) where basically pressured in to leaving.

As for the spectrum of TA-Video -> combo video -> gameplay video <- Walkthrough <- Tutorial I've always been in the mindset that gameplay videos (as in live play, be it mission runs like the True style tournement of DMC or NG Karma run or Tournement level SF matches. I've always considered them to be the greatest form of video, not necassarily my favourite, but it shows gameplay in often it's truest form. & you make a good point about manual combo videos also being invallid, certainly in alot of games it can take 100 attempts to get one combo, which clearly is not necassarily a true perspective to genuine gameplay prowess.

& yeah, i never even played third strike, but i had a rough idea of parrying mechanics. That video was amazing i almost choked up with excitement even though i didn't know what the fuck was going on. Damn Capcom for not releasing an english version of the game (Besides dreamcast)

I doubt you'd know, but are there any decent emulators for it? I'd love to play the game but the one i downloaded was some kind of arcade port type of thing & didn't have any trial mode. But nevermind, with SSFIV i imagine i'll get a taste of what it was like.

[Dark_Chaotix]

-- I can't imagine how someone could still care about what people think anymore.

I dont get this....Why make in the first place. If its just purely for your satisfaction then why record it and have others view it?? I fell deep down that people say they dont care when they prob looking for some sort of acknowledgment from certain people or audience.

Maj, explain your love for Persona combo vids?

[Maj]

I dont get this....Why make in the first place.

It's funny, this poll was something like 7/3 (can't remember exactly) when i merged these threads and now it's almost even. Kids these days!

Maj, explain your love for Persona combo vids?

Huh?

[Xenozip.]

Huh?

Boobs.





(fyi)

[Dark_Chaotix]

Maj, explain your love for Persona combo vids?

Huh?

Um...I got the impression that you like Persona and his vids that he has made and just wanted to know why you favour or like his work?

[Maj]

Oh, i dunno, he makes consistently good vids. Plus oldschool CvS2 combo alliance! I guess i'm a little biased/nostalgic towards people who came up through that game like me or otherwise played a significant part in its evolution.

[Persona]

*is reminded of my cvs 2 combo videos and facepalms*

[Maj]

Hahaha whatever dude! They were awesome back then and you know it. Even tragic thought so.

How the hell were we supposed to know that using anime clips in combo videos would be against the law after 2005?

[onReload]

& yeah, i never even played third strike, but i had a rough idea of parrying mechanics. That video was amazing i almost choked up with excitement even though i didn't know what the fuck was going on. Damn Capcom for not releasing an english version of the game (Besides dreamcast)

I doubt you'd know, but are there any decent emulators for it? I'd love to play the game but the one i downloaded was some kind of arcade port type of thing & didn't have any trial mode. But nevermind, with SSFIV i imagine i'll get a taste of what it was like.

Third Strike is also on the PS2, under the Street Fighter Anniversary Collection title, 'cause it also has Hyper Street Fighter II...but the PS2 version is North America only. The XBOX version has a European release, but it seems like that version is the worst one.

There's a simple cps3emulator that only does the 7 or so CPS3 games, and mameplus and final burn alpha also support SF3: Third Strike.

[Magnetro]

Dude you can't declare someone the greatest of all time less than a month after they release the best video they've ever made and more or less retire. He claims they're the best MvC2 combos possible and that may be true for some of them, but nobody's had a chance to digest them yet or to try to top them. And who knows what'll happen once MvC2 gets emulated? It'd be foolish to think that they're going to stand up forever.

Well, all right. I'll give it time. I'm not sure if anyone will ever try to top them or if MvC2 will be emulated. I can't do much for either of those two options, so we'll see.

I'd say he's the best combo author of his generation but to say that he did all this himself is going a bit too far, especially when he's like 3rd generation after TZW and Skill Smith, and same generation with several other greats like Tosaka, Sai-Rec, and kysg. There's a lot of walls he didn't have to break down because they were already leveled for him.

I didn't mean to say he did everything himself, I was talking about how much work he put into it with program pads and excel. I didn't mean to compare him to TZW, mainly 'cause I don't know much about him.

Plus let's not overlook the (massive) programmable controller advantage. You were the only other Marvel kid to have ppads and there wasn't a whole lot of interest in Marvel in Japan so joo didn't have much competition in that area. Look at all the people who went through the "Marvel is the new hotness" phase without access to ppads: jchensor, Mike Z, Jadon Brown, Clockw0rk, Genghis, ShadyK, eKiN, Amir, Dasrik, MrWhitefolks, etc. etc. These people's contributions aren't minor.

I'm not sure how to respond to that. What you're doing seems too 'what if'. I'm pretty sure Joo got some ideas from the videos American players did.

And the 5 year thing is a bit shady too because i spent over a year and a half on my Evo Guile video and it turned out pretty decent. I'm still planning on revisiting it at some point. Let's say i spend another year on it and come up with something better. Then make two more revisions and the 4th revision ends up close to an hour long, having taken 5 years. Can you say that it can't be measured up against joo's MvC2 DVD just because he kept his combos secret for 5 years instead of releasing periodic updates? Because like, for example TZW's last ST video represents close to 10 years of ST combo development. And some of those combos still got topped!

Well, while joo never released his combos, he put out Vol 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11, all of which contained truncated versions of his ideas. ... Does that count? I think the reason the five year thing is so impressive is because he didn't FINISH the whole cast (56 characters/combinations/assists/bugs/etc) in a year and a half. He explored everyone equally, and it took 5 years to do that. If he started out with access to the 100% technique and AC adapters, he probably would have finished everything in 2 years.

-- I can't imagine how someone could still care about what people think anymore.

I dont get this....Why make in the first place. If its just purely for your satisfaction then why record it and have others view it?? I fell deep down that people say they dont care when they prob looking for some sort of acknowledgment from certain people or audience.

Well, I don't know if it's the same thing -- but releasing it publicly is not the same as caring what people think, in my opinion. Just because you release something for people to see, doesn't mean that you have to care about what they're going to say about it. Now, if he hadn't released any of it, then I think you can say that he didn't care about people seeing it as well as what they'd think about it.

[Maj]

Well, while joo never released his combos, he put out Vol 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11, all of which contained truncated versions of his ideas. ... Does that count? I think the reason the five year thing is so impressive is because he didn't FINISH the whole cast (56 characters/combinations/assists/bugs/etc) in a year and a half. He explored everyone equally, and it took 5 years to do that. If he started out with access to the 100% technique and AC adapters, he probably would have finished everything in 2 years.

Yeah but it's not like he went through them in order, so i don't see how this is any different than anyone working on a game for 5 years. You find stuff yourself, you work on your ideas, you learn from other people's work, and eventually you get to a point where you feel like you're done with a combo.

The excel spreadsheets certainly look daunting but that's just his style of exploration. Some people keep track of their info mentally and rely on spontaneous creativity instead of brute force testing. I mean some of the combos in joo's DVD are definitely "excel spreadsheet combos" but others not so much. I'm sure you can spot a bunch of characters/combos where that data was overkill and didn't really help much. Like i could've written up excel spreadsheets for every one of Rose's reflected fireballs, but at the end of the day, the only one that would've made a difference is Akuma's air fireball. Everything else is intuitively obvious.

Plus he only averaged somewhere between two or three combos per character, right? On a per-character basis, i think kysg actually beats him. It's a shame that kysg never finished his 3S series because then this discussion would get real interesting.

Btw that last sentence doesn't help your argument at all. I mean i'm cool with randomly putting people on pedestals and showering them with praise because i personally have a lot of heroes in this community too. But i don't think anyone's feet should be glued to the damn thing, not even TZW.

[Magnetro]

Well, while joo never released his combos, he put out Vol 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11, all of which contained truncated versions of his ideas. ... Does that count? I think the reason the five year thing is so impressive is because he didn't FINISH the whole cast (56 characters/combinations/assists/bugs/etc) in a year and a half. He explored everyone equally, and it took 5 years to do that. If he started out with access to the 100% technique and AC adapters, he probably would have finished everything in 2 years.

Yeah but it's not like he went through them in order, so i don't see how this is any different than anyone working on a game for 5 years. You find stuff yourself, you work on your ideas, you learn from other people's work, and eventually you get to a point where you feel like you're done with a combo.

The excel spreadsheets certainly look daunting but that's just his style of exploration. Some people keep track of their info mentally and rely on spontaneous creativity instead of brute force testing. I mean some of the combos in joo's DVD are definitely "excel spreadsheet combos" but others not so much. I'm sure you can spot a bunch of characters/combos where that data was overkill and didn't really help much. Like i could've written up excel spreadsheets for every one of Rose's reflected fireballs, but at the end of the day, the only one that would've made a difference is Akuma's air fireball. Everything else is intuitively obvious.

Marvel has too much stuff to keep track of. Of course some of it is going to be overkill, but it's not like he mined data for stuff that would not be useful in a combo.

Plus he only averaged somewhere between two or three combos per character, right? On a per-character basis, i think kysg actually beats him. It's a shame that kysg never finished his 3S series because then this discussion would get real interesting.

He only put in the ideas that were interesting. He found/has wayyyyy more combos than he included on the DVD. In his input command excel sheet, he has ike 250 combos that weren't in the DVD. Plus, in Marvel, you're able to incorporate a bunch of ideas into one combo. For example, in the Felicia combo, he did like 10 really cool things that could have gotten their own combos, but by using assists, he was able to put everything into one combo. So saying that ____ has more combos per-chraracter in a video doesn't really make sense in this case.

[Maj]

Yes, because clearly kysg included every single clip he ever recorded. Give me a break dude. We all have combos we never bother including in videos or even recording. Not to mention there are plenty of single- and double-idea combos in joo's DVD too.

Sorry sir, you can only loop this track for so long before it gets old.

[Pokey86]

I think you're both falling off track of your on viewpoints here. Tends to happen when an argument prolongs itself.

Didn't you oth just state that it doesn't hold any weight when you start comparing people point by point? (Or generally at all)


& i've known a few people who had very little trimmings when they were done, hell bigalski used to save up his error sections & make videos out of them

[Maj]

It's not that big a deal; arguments around here never get that heated. All i'm trying to say is there's a fine line between respect and complacency. We've been calling joo the best ever since this DVD first got mentioned over a year ago and i'm tired of hearing the same things over and over. I just don't think anyone should be revered so highly that we surrender instead of trying to top them.

[Magnetro]

In the case about 'Why release something in the first place?': I think that releasing something is mostly because you want to have other people know what you discovered and did. I don't know if caring about it falls into the same category as strictly just wanting your finished product out there for people to see. For me, it's something about having everything compartmentalized and finished somewhere that is appealing to me. I think that's why my web site looks the way it does. Everything is within a border -- like a picture frame. Something about having a free form web page with dynamic spacing and whatnot is really off-putting.

[Xenozip.]

You guys sound soooo much like me.

A. "why do you do it?"
B. "because it amuses me"

A. "are you satisfied with what you did?"
B. "no, because it could be better"

A. "so you could level yourself up?"
B. "of course"

A. "how?"
B. "more. doing theory, doing actual,spectating theory, spectating actual, doing what i don't wanna do, spectating what i don't wanna do.More of everything."

A. "how do you feel about the responses you get?"
B. "responses?".

A, "don't you get feedback?"
B. "Buttermaker told me once that one of my setups was invalid. I don't do invalid setups anymore after that. That was kind of cool because I took it to heart. I haven't heard much else, it's all been YAY or NAY which doesn't mean dick to me."

[Pokey86]

I'm curious. amongst hatemail & bashing of videos etc. As well as the praiseing side of it all. Has anyone here actually had comments relating to there own creations play on there mind. I don't mean you literally lost sleep over it, but along the lines of you pondering the comment/your feelings on it for a great deal of time.

I say this because not long ago, a good e-friend of mine mentioned something about my my videos, or the time i took to create them. & it played on my mind for a good deal of time, i literally did lose sleep over it.

I'm just curious if anyone else has been affected in somewhat the same manor.

[Doopliss]

Can't say I have, most of the criticism I get on my videos are from people that doesn't know any better, saying stuff like "These can't be used in a real match", "Fake" and "They aren't practical!".

[Snoooootch]

I noticed them ^ too.

I hate when they tell me I have too much time on my hands.

[Persona]

I used to lose some sleep over comments in the past but now they don't bug me much anymore. I usually ignore ignorant comments and tell those people who say I have no life that everyone is different (as in it might take someone a month to make a good video while it might take someone a day with the same quality). The more experience you have, the quicker and better you can get things done compared to someone who is lacking in it, therefore I kind of classify all the ignorant and "no life" comments into the "they lack experience" category.

TBH I think making videos (or almost anything) is just one big tolerance test. And that's not from making videos, but from dealing with all the retarded comments. When you get bombarded with too many retarded comments, you'll probably be too tired to care.

[CPS2]

I think it sounds like it affected you because it was a friend. If it was some random douchebag you had no respect for in the first place, you probably wouldn't care as much.

[Snoooootch]

I hate when I misspell words and people call me out on them. But that's... my fault. lol

[Maj]

On an emotional level, i don't think any of you guys would believe how little i actually care about that kind of stuff. 99% of the time it either makes me laugh or shake my head and move on. If i don't respond, i'll forget all about it five minutes later.

If i do respond, it's almost always an objective decision. Most insults are better off ignored, but some insults contain misinformation that i think is better off corrected. Like someone says something that's so shockingly uninformed that i figure i could set the record straight in under five minutes. Of course i tend to underestimate the stubbornness of the internet, which causes me headaches from time to time.

But once they're over, those flame wars don't weigh on my mind at all. There's only one that i remember and it's only because it was the worst one, and it's kind of human nature to remember the best and worst of everything. I'm sure it'll get overwritten sooner or later.

So yeah, what people say about my stuff never really bothers me. Although technically, i do lose sleep over it every time i stay up until 5am editing/uploading a video. I like to respond to the first wave of comments asap, because there's always a couple of questions that get asked immediately that need to be answered sooner rather than later. Especially with combo challenges and such.

You'll drive yourself crazy if you take everything everyone says about you to heart - especially strangers on the internet.

[Pokey86]

I think it sounds like it affected you because it was a friend. If it was some random douchebag you had no respect for in the first place, you probably wouldn't care as much.

Exactly... I mean, the random "Get a life/wouldn't work for real/do that VS me son!" is just water off a ducks back. But because it came from someone i share info with, it ran a little deeper. For example when i get a response here i take it considerably more seriously than say "Random-youtube-comment #52"

[Maj]

What exactly did your friend say, if you don't mind us asking?