SF4 Plinking

[Maj]

Okay, from the top. Forget about kara-canceling. It's easier to understand plinking if you think of it as its own unique thing. Read this step by step and make sure you understand each step before moving on.

Let's say someone's s.MP has 20 frames total, and let's say that turns into 30 frames (including impact freeze) when it connects. Let's ignore input lag.

If you press c.MK on the 30th frame, you'll get nothing. If you press c.MK on the 31st frame, you'll get c.MK on the first possible frame after s.MP recovery. If s.MP, c.MK is a one-frame link, it'll combo. This is true for EVERY game.

If you press c.MK on the 30th frame, and hold it for 10 frames, you still won't get anything on the 31st frame! Is this clear?

Now let's look at ANY other game - CvS2 for example. If you press c.MK on the 31st frame and D+LK+MK on the 32nd frame, you'll get c.MK (because it'll register on the 31st frame and that D+LK+MK input won't matter). If you press c.MK on the 30th frame and D+LK+MK on the 31st frame, you'll get c.LK!!

Because there's no damn reason the game should register MK twice in a row just because you held it while you pressed LK. As far as CvS2 is concerned, you fucked up the c.MK timing and now you're just holding MK while you press LK. The result is c.LK!

However, SF4 has some crazy input leniency that has never been in a fighting game before. SF4 will take that D+LK+MK input and say "Okay, this is a new input. MK has priority over LK, so i'm going to count that as c.MK!"

This only happens on consecutive frames. If you press c.MK on the 29th frame, hold it on the 30th frame, then press D+LK+MK on the 31st frame, you'll get c.LK as expected.

Input Display reflects this. If you press MK and then LK+MK on the very next frame, the input display will show MK followed by LK+MK. If you press MK for two frames and then press LK+MK on the third frame, the input display will show MK followed by LK.

(In CvS2, if you press MK and then LK+MK on the very next frame, the input display will show MK followed by LK.)

Clear?

[error1]

This is true for EVERY game.

not true for sf1
but good description, I'm not sure anyone knows why sf4 works that way

[Maj]

Haha not true for SFTM either, but who cares? (And SFTM is more of a Street Fighter game than SF1!)

Anyway i guess i was wrong when i said that those neutral plink inputs in Snoooootch's vid tell us nothing, but their significance doesn't match the explanation given in the subtitles.

[Rufus]

However, SF4 has some crazy input leniency that has never been in a fighting game before. SF4 will take that D+LK+MK input and say "Okay, this is a new input. MK has priority over LK, so i'm going to count that as c.MK!"

This only happens on consecutive frames. If you press c.MK on the 29th frame, hold it on the 30th frame, then press D+LK+MK on the 31st frame, you'll get c.LK as expected.

Actually, at least part of it existed in SF3:3rd impact where the same sort of kara throwing is possible. Blazblue apparently also has some kind of mechanism for facilitating links which will allow 'close' button inputs to work.

Usually, when I read 'input leniency' I think of the fact that it's possible to do Fei Long's flame kick with up/back,up/forward,up/back + kick in SSF4.

[CPS2]

Actually, at least part of it existed in SF3:3rd impact where the same sort of kara throwing is possible.

You missed the part at the top where he said "ignore kara cancelling."

Kara cancels work in pretty much all SF games afaik...

But yeah... I don't think plinking has anything to do with kara cancels. Maybe people assume it's similar because you're doing one command on the frame after another.

One thing that's really weird about plinking though, is that hitting a button on consecutive frames is generally the same as holding it for 2 frames, it wouldn't normally be anything like a double tap...

[Snoooootch]

See maj, what you said is exactly how I see it. I just thought it followed the same 1 frame rule are kara cancels. So I used Kara cancelling as an example of the actual input of a plink. I guess I didn't explain it correctly, or.... I'm still wrong about that. lol.

[onReload]

Kara-cancels don't have to be in 1 frame, you just need to cancel the start-up frames of a move (before it becomes active, generally)...try Sagat's F+LK into Tiger Upper, canceling it at different times will yield different results

[Doopliss]

But that's not a kara cancel, just cancelling the start-up frames.

[onReload]

Oh? That's what I thought a kara was, like Ken's kara-throw being F+MK~LP+LK, you cancel the stepkick before it can do any damage

[Doopliss]

The difference is that moves like Sagat's f.LK and f.HK, C.Viper far s.HP and Guy's f.MP, have special cancellable frames during start-up. That's why you can EX FADC them. I don't know if you would still call it a kara cancel, but it's not the same mechanic.

[onReload]

I'm not sure it matters that you can empty-cancel it though...shrug

[Snoooootch]

This spectacle needs to be cleared up. hahaha, oh boy. The beauty of fighting games...

[error1]

it's still a kara cancel, it doesn't matter what startup frame you do it on. Think about kara demon
Some older sf games have larger kara window anyway

[onReload]

I think Maj cleared up priority-linking for me finally with this post, and it definitely helps to think of it as a frame-by-frame timeline the way Xenozip had it...and kara cancels are pretty simple, but completely different, as nothing is being canceled with plinking, but instead, over-ridden.

[ilitirit]

I think there's no renda-kara cancels like SF2 has.

Isn't Chun's cr.lk xx cr.lk, legs a renda kara cancel, or is it a special case?

Chun's cr.lk can chain into itself, but it's not special or super cancelable. The combo into legs shouldn't be possible unless it's a renda kara cancel or there's another mechanic at work.

[onReload]

I think it's just linking

[ilitirit]

You can't link legs from cr.lk because the fastest version (EX) comes out in 4 frames, and cr.lk only gives +2 on hit.

[Maj]

It's probably some glitch having to do with the way the SF4 engine processes chain cancel inputs. Chun Li can't renda-kara-cancel into any special move except Lightning Legs, right? And she's got a lot of other weird mash input stuff too:

Chun c.LP -> c.LP xx LK Lightning Legs (works)
Chun c.LK xx LK Lightning Legs (works)
Chun c.LK xx MK Lightning Legs (doesn't work)
Chun c.LK xx HK Lightning Legs (doesn't work)
Chun c.LK xx EX Lightning Legs (mashing KKK) (works)
Chun c.LK xx EX Lightning Legs (mashing only MK+HK) (works)

Gen can do the same thing with PPP:c.LP -> PPP:c.LP xx LP Hyakureno except he can do it with HP Hyakurenko as well. Interesting find, but i'm not sure there are too many applications for it. Keep looking though, it might lead you to something cool.

[Doopliss]

Yes, mash moves seems to be cancelable from chained light moves. When I play Gen online and want to combo into super, I usually do some jabs, cancelled into hands, cancelled into super. Because the jabs can't be cancelled into the super, I can buffer the super during the jabs, and the hands will be cancelled automatically.

[error1]

chain light attacks work a little different in sf4 then other games. I did some testing when looking at why Balrog can whiff a jab mid combo and found that chaining light attacks doesn't remove the recovery, it just reduces it. I don't think it would reduce it enough to give you +4 if it was a renda cancel

[Maj]

Yup, i wrote the same thing in my Balrog TACV transcript, but that still doesn't explain why or how any of this stuff works. And why wouldn't a hypothetical renda-cancel be enough to create an additional +2?

[error1]

For the chain light attacks I tested chaining only gives an extra +2 ( one less recovery and one less active ) , I did only test with fast light attacks though so if it's a percentage reduction it might be different.
but for Balrog far lp normaly gives +8
whiffing a s.lp is seven frames and the startup of c.lp is 3 frames so the lp gives rog +10 when chained
however to renda cancel you would need 1 frame of the chained move before you do the legs right? so that would only be +3

[Maj]

Yeah i'd be extremely surprised if Chun Li only got +2 from chaining c.LK compared to linking. (Rog's jab might be the most extreme case in the game.)

SF4 Chun's c.LK has 4 active and 8 frames of recovery. No way chaining only reduces it by 1. The timing on c.LK -> far s.LK would have to be airtight if it only gave +4, but it's actually very lenient. Like you can clearly see Chun recovering before pressing s.LK and it still combos.

Btw it looks like Chun can do counterhit c.LP -> whiff c.LP -> c.LK but can't do counterhit c.LK -> whiff c.LP -> c.LK in SF4. Not too surprising though, since c.LK has so much active frames as well as recovery. And meaty counterhit c.LK -> whiff c.LP -> c.LK works.