SF4 Combo Engine Investigation

[Maj]

Got back from the SF4 launch event in LA, which was held at a ghetto run down warehouse area that had me asking when we were going to be lining up to get mugged. Overall my review is a positive one. After only playing three games (with Guile), i gotta say that it feels like a Street Fighter game. A few things are weird and jumping in general is disorienting, but most things feel right.

At the moment it's kind of hard to tell what would happen after a month of serious play. Maybe something will break or maybe things will balance out. A lot of characters seemed good from what we saw - Ken, Vega, Honda, Abel, Zangief, and so on. For me it was unclear where all the real/scary damage was hidden. Therefore all the risk/reward stuff is kinda undefined so far.

By the way, did you guys watch the E3 Gameplay System trailer for SF4? Ryu talks?! Wtf that's not right.

[desk]

that system trailer got me really hyped. It's awesome to see proper combo's and set-ups finally. Thankfully I'll be playing it next weekend and I think I'm going to be using dictator. I really want to use chun ( i do in ST) but she just doesn't look fun to me

I think we have to remember that it's the first version of a new game. I think it's inevitably going to have some broken stuff in it. I'm hoping though, that by the time the console version comes out (the first time I'll really be able to practice on the game) the arcade version will have been tweaked, the 360 will get that version and we'll all be on the same page.

Early vids are showing that rufus has some stupid things. He looks insanely solid, has completely safe combo's and fast dive kicks

what are your thoughts on the focus system maj? you get to mess around with it much?

[Maj]

Not really, though there's a lot of combo potential obviously. It's too hard to do on day one, plus you need meter for it so unless someone buys a board, it's gonna take a while to see crazy applications. Maybe TZW will join in on the fun. One thing i'd like to figure out is how the combo into throw system works, because Abel has a rekka ken that ends in a throw and i thought i saw Gief combo into FAB as well.

On the plus side, damn near every LA area Street Fighter player i've ever met was at the event, so at least there's no shortage of quality interest.

As far as safe moves go, throw range is actually pretty buff in this game so as long as one of the grappers is good, it won't be so easy to do safe block strings. I do remember s-kill saying that Bison is good, even though nobody was using him.

[desk]

you can see a gief player reversal spd and ex spd against rufus's nonsense with no juice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h87j2Ge9m4g

I'm really not going to like it if rufus turn's out to be S tier. the sf cast haven't been training their whole lives to get destroyed by a random new fat guy, lol. Not that I'm a story whore or anything but it jut doesn't sit well with me. I wonder if he'll show up in the anime sequences...

[Maj]

Yeah i'd also have a problem with Rufus taking up half the spots at Evo top 8 but then again it's very early. There's a lot left to be discovered.

A lot of those EX command grabs have super armor which lets them get through one hit, so that's at least one way of dealing with close range attack strings. Crossups in general seem really good right now, but i'm sure people will find ways of dealing with that too. Again, a lot of characters look buff right now so it's not only Rufus.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about how exactly the Saving Strikes work, when they can be canceled, how much meter everything costs, etc.

[fullmetalross]

K, so according to forgenjuro, who is in japan, the bbs's are saying that you can indeed cancel out of a super jump cancel into at least a super, though it is likely you can also do it into a special, seeing as how bbs's are saying you can do cr.mp(which is super jump cancelable) into ex thunder knuckle with C.viper, which should not be possible.....

C.vipers jab thunder knuckle move is cancelable during startup by pressing PP

C.viper also has a special move that allows you to cancel it into a super jump, but apparently that move won't hit airborne opponents (maybe it will hit chun-li or something if she ends up getting the extra low juggle thing like she has in cvs 2 and third strike) so this effectively cuts out my first idea of having kyosuke re jump infinites of some sort..... but if you can cancel it into a super jump then perhaps, you can super jump cancel into jab thunder knuckle, immediately cancel that with pp, leaving you on the floor recovered (hopefully faster) and they will be in a juggleable state, opening up all sorts of combo opportunties! or so I hope...

C.viper seems to be the character that they gave the most random subset of systems too so here is hoping that through all this weird stuff we can find some fucked up combos for her!

Forgenjuro post: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.ph ... stcount=26

Also a little special: Kamui says this may be daigo http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm4038207
watch daigo pull off the two hot Ryu combos of the minute
Ex Shoryu, saving attack cancel, dash, ultra
hit by a saving attack, cr.mp, cr.fp, ex hurricane

pretty sex.

[Dark_Chaotix]

I dont have nico account

[desk]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eRxBsJApIe4

That stuff will become standard. Initially i think people were concerned about meter usage but I think you have to maximise every opportunity you have. If you have the meter when you start the combo, it's probably best to burn it off for that extra damage. Chances are it's dangerous to throw out ultra's outside of combos anyway.

I absolutely cannot wait to play this game after watching that video!!!!

[Maj]

Why does he keep using EX DP to dash cancel into ultra? I've seen people cancel out of EX DP but they don't get any juggle opportunities off that, so it must be the ultra that's juggling. If that's the case, wouldn't it be cheaper meterwise to use regular DP? I can't imagine one hit of EX DP causing that much more damage than HP DP.

Daigo may have cool combos now, but let's see him pull those off once he stops getting hit!

[desk]

yeah I thought the same thing but he isn't using EX dp. It flashes yellow because of the focus dash, which is off putting. You can see if you watch his meter.

[Goryus]

Yes, he's doing a regular dp, canceling it into a saving attack, dash-cancelling the saving attack, and then doing the ultra.

[Maj]

Oh ok, that makes more sense. As far as Saving Attacks go, do we have a solid flowchart yet?

- MP+MK initiates the attack, and you can hold those buttons to extend the startup period
- fully charging the attack makes it unblockable

- the startup period can be dash-canceled
- if the attack connects, then it can be dash-canceled
- if the attack whiffs, then it can't be dash-canceled during recovery

- the startup period has one hit worth of autoguard
- taking a hit during the autoguard period costs vitality, but the amount sacrificed is shown in white and recovers after a few seconds
- getting hit before the lifebar is done recovering results in the remainder being lost
- taking a fatal hit during the autoguard period still kills your character, but your character finishes the attack before falling over

- special moves can be canceled into Saving Attacks at the cost of 2 units of super meter

Is all of that correct? Most of it is stuff i've overheard but haven't had a chance to verify myself.

[Goryus]

That's...quite accurate. A few things to note:

- you can only cancel super-cancellable specials into saving attacks
- you can cancel any cancellable normal into a saving attack (also costs 2 stocks)
- if the saving attack hits after being charged up, it inflicts crumple-stun

Enemies in crumple stun slowly collapse and fall on the ground. It's a state inflicted by saving attacks, but also some special moves (see: C. Viper's EX thunder knuckle).

Some moves that don't normally knockdown will knockdown an enemy in crumple stun. They also float a little when this happens, so you can juggle in certain situations.

Enemies in crumple stun can be thrown (and the throw will combo), so you can do things like saving attack -> pile driver.

[Maj]

There are super-cancels in SF4?? Since when? Why hasn't Daigo done any on youtube? I demand answers.

[Goryus]

Yep, there are super cancels.

You probably haven't seen much of them in matches because, between EX moves and saving attack cancels, it's hard to get full super meter. And you can't cancel anything into an ultra, they only work in links and juggles.

[Maj]

Cool. At the SF4 launch event there were a lot of vague mumbled rumors about charge partitioning. If any of that turns out to be true, maybe it'll help Guile make something out of those super cancels. Also it'll help us game engine detective types figure out how the combo into throw system works.

I'm still waiting for the console version release but the nonchalant waiting has turned into somewhat anxious waiting.

[Maj]

Alright i've got a couple of questions about Abel. First off, does he have a grab super? Both of his supers look like they have grabby parts but both of them also look like they start with a hit. After looking through over a dozen youtube videos, i've come to the conclusion that youtube is at terrible place to look for answers to simple questions. All the Abel players keep canceling from that rekka ken into his super, so it's hard to tell if it's a hit or if it's a grab which happens to combo when canceled out of that rekka ken move. One video had an Abel player doing random super which his opponent could have blocked, but she jumped away instead. Haters through and through.

The other question is, what the hell do Abel's supers look like, exactly? It seems like he does something different every time. At 2:04 in this video, Abel does an ultra that buktooth calls the "abortion kicks super" where he "just kicks her in the gut like 50x." Did that version get replaced or is it still randomly in there?

[Goryus]

As far as I know, no grab super. Both his regular super and his ultimate start off with an attack, then go into a canned animation if the initial attack hits. Both can be blocked. Oh, and the animation for the super is different depending on which button you press, so he does a different "combo" with jab than with fierce.

The thing in that video you linked with the million kicks is indeed his ultra. As far as I know, it's unchanged.

You can find a great breakdown of Abel's moves here:

http://www.capcom-unity.com/s-kill/blog ... ial_moves_

[Maj]

That's incredibly helpful. Thank you sir.

Even though he doesn't have a grab super, there's still EX Saving Attack dash canceling (EXSADC?) as a way of trying to combo his rekka kens into command grab. We'll have to see if there's enough hit stun to work with, but none of his grab enders look terribly fast so that's encouraging.

When's the Japanese guide for SF4 coming out? I bet it'll have all sorts of useful frame data like minimal EXSADC intervals for every character. They might even have optimal EXSADC frame advantage for every cancelable special move, which would help a lot in predicting what works and what doesn't. Even if they don't include this data in an official publication, i'm sure it won't be long before someone steps up to the task.

By the way, have you guys seen Chun Li's alternate costume in action? Good lord, that things needs to be banned from tournaments immediately.

[Goryus]

I don't know of any way to combo into a grab other than through a move than inflicts crumple stun. Change of direction, dash cancel -> 360 definitely doesn't work, and you have HUGE amounts of frame advantage after that.

Have you seen a combo into a grab somewhere that doesn't use crumple stun? Could you link a video?

[desk]

some stuff that might be completely awesome for combos (or not). Managed to actually play the game at the weekend. I only used dic and was able to try 1 or 2 things out. Really, really wish i had more time with it though, the potential for combo's seemed really quite insane.

Dic still has his j. strong juggle from ST (but with the cvs2 properties). You can combo with the ultra afterwards as well as super, ex pc and ex scissors. When you land the ultra, you cause standing hit stun to allow the rest to always combo. Now I'm not sure if this part is correct but when using ex scissors to juggle the first hit also looked like it caused standing hit stun then the 2nd knocked over again. If this is correct (I can't be 100%) I think it may be possible to go into ground combo's again by focus cancelling the the first hit of the scissors, dashing back in and continuing the combo. I really, really want to confirm this and work some more stuff out but I won't get to play it again for a long time

Even if that doesn't work the focus cancelling has huge potential for combos anyway. Because scissors are cancellable, when ending a combo with them, it seems you can dash back in and repeat.

I recorded my first ever game on sf4 and I landed 1 or 2 combos and set-ups that just beg to be expanded upon. I might post up a small clip when I have time.

[Maj]

Have you seen a combo into a grab somewhere that doesn't use crumple stun? Could you link a video?

I've never seen anyone do it, but i've never seen anyone try it either. Since the full rekka combos, then it stands to reason that either the second part of the rekka sets up throw combos like Alex's Flash Chop or the enders always combo unlike regular throws. Testing the former should be easy with EXSADC but testing the latter will be considerably more difficult. Maybe like, Abel does super/ultra to trade with Dhalsim's s.LK from long range, then does reversal rekka to make the first two hits whiff?

Plus there's that whole thing with Vega's EX Wall Grab hitting on the way up, which makes the throw a combo as well. Makes me wonder if you could follow up Flip Kick or Ball xx EXSADC with EX Wall Grab to combo the throw only. EX Wall Grab looks helluva fast and Flip Kick launches opponents hella high.

[Goryus]

Ooooh, I get it now. Sorry, I actually misunderstood your original suggestion about Change of Direction.

However, CoD doesn't work quite like you think it does. That last hit, which looks like a throw, isn't a throw it all! It's a regular attack, and it can be blocked. It does lead into a canned animation where he flings you over him if it hits, which gives it the appearance of being a grab of some sort. It's similar to his super and ultra in that regard.

As for Vega's combo into air grab off the wall, that's a good observation. It seems like all command grabs that can catch an air-borne opponent do that. You can combo into Abel's grabby hand and Fuerte's scissor kicks the same way. Oddly enough, it's only command air throws that do this - I tried doing flash kick, dash cancel, air throw with Guile, and it doesn't seem to work.

Change of Direction Flow Chart

First Hit
- Super Cancellable
- Combos off of pretty much any normal
- If you dash cancel it, it leaves you at approximately +80 billion frame advantage

2nd hit (P)
- Combos off of first hit
- Hits high
- Not cancellable into anything but 3rd hit

2nd hit (k)
- Does not combo off of first hit
- hits low
- Super Cancellable
- If you dash cancel it, you are left with frame disadvantage

3rd hit (p)
- Is not a throw
- Can be blocked
- Combos off of 2nd hit

3rd hit (k)
- Is a throw
- Cannot be blocked
- Does not combo off of 2nd hit

[Maj]

Oh ok, thanks, that makes a lot more sense now. I was confused because i saw people trying all versions of the rekkas and they all seemed to be comboing. Have i mentioned that i hate the way the combo counter doesn't show up until the end of the combo? It's so dumb cuz if you do a string of three hits and one of them doesn't combo, the counter doesn't tell you which connector failed. Plus in combo videos you gotta leave extra time at the end for the words to show up. Annoying.

Oddly enough, it's only command air throws that do this - I tried doing flash kick, dash cancel, air throw with Guile, and it doesn't seem to work. :(

: ( indeed.

[Maj]

Can Saving Attacks cancel certain airborne specials or did they change Flash Kick and Scissor Kick to connect while grounded? In ever game so far, Guile's Flash Kick has always gotten off the ground before hitting, which is why air block always owned it up (outside of the ghetto aka CFJ).

[Goryus]

Saving attacks can magically cancel anything that is otherwise cancellable. And yes, that means a lot of things that ~look~ like they're off the ground. Examples are Flash kick, psycho crusher, blanka ball, headbutt, etc.

However...I'm not sure if they are *really* off the ground, or if they just *look* like it. It might be something like Guile's upside down kick, where he looks like he's off the ground but technically still counts as grounded. The cancellable windows for those moves are right at the beginning, so even though they look like they're in the air, they still might count as being on the ground at the point. Regardless, it does look pretty weird when they go from "apparently airborne" to "suddenly on the ground", when they cancel into super or a saving attack.

[desk]

anyone planning on testing any of this stuff at evo? i know i am Has it been posted how many setups they will have running?

goryus have you tested cancelling into focus from blanka ball? I asked someone to test that who was using blanka at battle of destiny and they said it didn't work.

[Goryus]

It works. It might even be possible to do blanka ball, dash cancel, link cr. lp / lk / some fast normal.

[desk]

^^that's crazyness! The block strings are going to be awesome... or stupid, lol. One or the other. Do you know if you can cancel from electric?

[fullmetalross]

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.ph ... tcount=412

That post has an amazing balrog combo! I wonder what else you can do.

Also seems like most ultras will always juggle.... at least ryu's and c.vipers do.

So like c.viper can do Seismo, jump flame kick, land ultra. Thats pretty hot.

also there has been some reference to sagat juggling two tiger knees after a traded DP.... sounds awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHi5ipdfrnA this video shows a juggle with 1 dp.